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A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

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Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#171

Post by 0x262d »

uk_programmer wrote: post #168
0x262d wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is simply saying you disagree with the definition of the word value in LTV and want value to mean a different concept (what marxists call price or exchange-value). It's a semantic argument without real content.

Not at all. The cost of producing something is different from its market value. Recently because of panic buying of loo roll, there wasn't any loo roll available in the UK. On Amazon for a 12 pack of decent quality loo roll was selling at 4 times the price of what it would be normally and they became sold out. You can lament about the ridiculous panic buying. However demand outstripped supply and the price reflected…

But that is entirely tangential to LTV. No one is denying the reality that supply and demand affect price in the short term. The argument is simply that in the long term as those equilibrate, the relative prices of commodities will tend to hover around their socially necessary labor times. Marxism/LTV distinguishes between value (socially necessary labor time) and price.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#172

Post by ardy42 »

leepowers wrote: post #154
bisRepetita wrote: post #101

I am reading Capital & Idelogy currently. I find interesting how Piketty challenges the view of property rights. Many think it is something completely natural, sacred. But he shows it is actually ideology. It is not "the nature of things". As I understand it in the book, property is not, and should not be seen as, a 100% inalienable human right. If it was so, it would be completely fair that slave-owners in Haiti and…

No country views property rights as inviolable. Eminent domain trumps individual property rights. Property can be seized pursuant to a lien due to debt, non-payment of taxes, criminal activity, etc. We're not operating under some slavish, unyielding notion of property rights. There's two distinct concepts being confused as one. The first concept is property rights in general. This concept is singular and correlated w…

> No country views property rights as inviolable. Eminent domain trumps individual property rights. Property can be seized pursuant to a lien due to debt, non-payment of taxes, criminal activity, etc. We're not operating under some slavish, unyielding notion of property rights.

However, quite a few individuals do seem to view property rights as inviolable, and reject the exceptions you enumerated.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#173

Post by nemo »

0x262d wrote: post #161
nemo wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it'd worth reading that page again with an open mind. If you really read through that and thought that there are no fatal issues that's fine, I don't agree, though I doubt there's anything that anyone could say to change your mind. But I will retract and restate. The Labor Theory of Value is taken seriously by Marxists because they require it, but in terms of expert opinion it's long since been rejected. If y…

Ah, people who believe in marxism are ideologues and people who believe in the predominant ruling-class economic wisdom are simply wisely following expert advice. I feel like I've been here before. If you dropped the constantly condescending hyperbolic anti marxist stuff and made substantive criticisms besides linking to wikipedia this could be a more interesting conversation!

[flagged]

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#174

Post by [deleted] »

0x262d wrote: post #171
uk_programmer wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The cost of producing something is different from its market value. Recently because of panic buying of loo roll, there wasn't any loo roll available in the UK. On Amazon for a 12 pack of decent quality loo roll was selling at 4 times the price of what it would be normally and they became sold out. You can lament about the ridiculous panic buying. However demand outstripped supply and the price reflected…

But that is entirely tangential to LTV. No one is denying the reality that supply and demand affect price in the short term. The argument is simply that in the long term as those equilibrate, the relative prices of commodities will tend to hover around their socially necessary labor times. Marxism/LTV distinguishes between value (socially necessary labor time) and price.

[deleted]

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#175

Post by [deleted] »

0x262d wrote: post #171
uk_programmer wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The cost of producing something is different from its market value. Recently because of panic buying of loo roll, there wasn't any loo roll available in the UK. On Amazon for a 12 pack of decent quality loo roll was selling at 4 times the price of what it would be normally and they became sold out. You can lament about the ridiculous panic buying. However demand outstripped supply and the price reflected…

But that is entirely tangential to LTV. No one is denying the reality that supply and demand affect price in the short term. The argument is simply that in the long term as those equilibrate, the relative prices of commodities will tend to hover around their socially necessary labor times. Marxism/LTV distinguishes between value (socially necessary labor time) and price.

[deleted]

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#176

Post by nemo »

0x262d wrote: post #171
uk_programmer wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. The cost of producing something is different from its market value. Recently because of panic buying of loo roll, there wasn't any loo roll available in the UK. On Amazon for a 12 pack of decent quality loo roll was selling at 4 times the price of what it would be normally and they became sold out. You can lament about the ridiculous panic buying. However demand outstripped supply and the price reflected…

But that is entirely tangential to LTV. No one is denying the reality that supply and demand affect price in the short term. The argument is simply that in the long term as those equilibrate, the relative prices of commodities will tend to hover around their socially necessary labor times. Marxism/LTV distinguishes between value (socially necessary labor time) and price.

How does the LTV account for the labor involved in mining copper, silver, and gold being virtually identical but their values being quite different?

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#177

Post by lliamander »

scarejunba wrote: post #130
lliamander wrote: post #99

I was watching a documentary[1] about Sweden's shift away from social democracy in the 70's/80's time-frame that Piketty talks about. From the way it sounds, the program of social democracy nearly destroyed the country. I would take Piketty's nostalgia for those times with a grain of salt. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcX6BUZlEw4

Does not feel like a high-coefficient source.

Care to elaborate?

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#178

Post by ardy42 »

lliamander wrote: post #99

I was watching a documentary[1] about Sweden's shift away from social democracy in the 70's/80's time-frame that Piketty talks about. From the way it sounds, the program of social democracy nearly destroyed the country. I would take Piketty's nostalgia for those times with a grain of salt. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcX6BUZlEw4

> I was watching a documentary[1] about Sweden's shift away from social democracy in the 70's/80's time-frame that Piketty talks about.

I'm not sure if I'd call that a documentary. The makes describe themsevles as "comedy news show" who are "equal-opportunity offenders":

https://www.wetheinternet.tv/:

> ABOUT US

> We the Internet TV isn't your average comedy news show: we're equal-opportunity offenders with new videos every week on current events, politics, and culture. You might call us a safe space for satire. Or you might call us something else in the comments section. We make fun of everyone—especially you—so don't say we didn't warn you!

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#179

Post by pas »

bisRepetita wrote: post #101

I am reading Capital & Idelogy currently. I find interesting how Piketty challenges the view of property rights. Many think it is something completely natural, sacred. But he shows it is actually ideology. It is not "the nature of things". As I understand it in the book, property is not, and should not be seen as, a 100% inalienable human right. If it was so, it would be completely fair that slave-owners in Haiti and…

Rights are a fairly new thing altogether: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhRBsJYWR8Q

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#180

Post by scarejunba »

lliamander wrote: post #177
scarejunba wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does not feel like a high-coefficient source.

Care to elaborate?

When deciding 'did something happen?' I need the sources to be generally reliable about fact reporting because they do not rely on pure reason. For fact reporting which is an aggregate, I need to rely upon the track record of the sources. In this case, some of the second-level sources are from the Cato Institute, which I know to be low trust source of truth[0].

This means I have to assign this a low-magnitude coefficient of trust (not a high-magnitude negative coefficient[1]).

That means what you're describing could well be true. I just don't know it based on who's saying it.

0: Compare http://web.archive.org/web/20090402090751/http://www.cato.or... with what I knew at the time

1: The classic "There is no gold buried here" is a high-magnitude negative coefficient

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