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A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

bostonreview.net

161–170 of 218 posts

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#161
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "[the Labor Theory of Value is] an idea long since thoroughly discredited." that's quite a claim to make without any backing ("everything is nothing" is not particularly useful). i've read some of the main critiques [0], but none thoroughly discredits it. yes, the critiques show flaws, but not fatal ones. so what's the fatal flaw? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_the_labour_theor...

I think it'd worth reading that page again with an open mind. If you really read through that and thought that there are no fatal issues that's fine, I don't agree, though I doubt there's anything that anyone could say to change your mind. But I will retract and restate. The Labor Theory of Value is taken seriously by Marxists because they require it, but in terms of expert opinion it's long since been rejected. If y…

Ah, people who believe in marxism are ideologues and people who believe in the predominant ruling-class economic wisdom are simply wisely following expert advice. I feel like I've been here before.

If you dropped the constantly condescending hyperbolic anti marxist stuff and made substantive criticisms besides linking to wikipedia this could be a more interesting conversation!

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#162
post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

One thing to remember is that everyone thinks they're "middle class". Even the corporate VP making half a million dollars thinks she's middle class.

If you can't live off the interest generated by your assets, and need to work to eat and keep a roof over your head, you're either working class or part of the middle class. The VP pulling in half a million is assuredly in the upper middle class, even if they make more money than 99% of people.

In a capitalist society, class is determined by ownership of, and your relationship to, capital.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#163
post #7

" “the Democratic Party in the United States transitioned over half a century from the workers’ party to the party of the highly educated.” Elites’ distance from working-class interest, he contends, led the Democratic party and its ideological counterparts abroad to accede to a policy program betraying the values of social democracy: regressive taxation, elite domination of higher education systems, and forms of glob…

I've always viewed it as paradoxical that the left is both: 1.) For the welfare of the worker, social programs, universal healthcare, "standard of living" 2.) Open borders immigration, free trade, outsourcing, and other ultra capitalist policies.

Free trade and open borders are only a problem for the working class under capitalism. That is what reconciles these views.

The point is workers elsewhere is equally entitled to support and liberty.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#164
post #104

I am reading Capital & Idelogy currently. I find interesting how Piketty challenges the view of property rights. Many think it is something completely natural, sacred. But he shows it is actually ideology. It is not "the nature of things". As I understand it in the book, property is not, and should not be seen as, a 100% inalienable human right. If it was so, it would be completely fair that slave-owners in Haiti and…

Of course property rights are ideology. Anything to do with society and how it's organized is ideological. I think we ended up with private property because the alternatives have been tried and they are worse (e.g. tragedy of the commons).

That's a drastic oversimplification. Most alternatives which have been tried were either both with extrememe ideological prejudice and in wildly different social and technological enviornments.

Malthus does not stand up to scrutiny.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#165
post #58
post #27

I'm surprised he's still writing after that disaster Capital in the 21th Centurary. Rarely have I read such error riddled, manipulative and clearly fantasy based economic writings.

More please....

More? In terms of explanation I only read the numbers/graphs and not his comments, but most of the important graphs (incl. those mentioned other places in this thread) are extrapolations that go far beyond what his data supports. He is creating a reality that fits his reasoning.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labour theory of value is easily discredited. The market determines the value i.e. what people are willing to pay for something. The labour theory of value is simply describing the cost of producing something. Whether people are willing to buy it as that price (which would be same as selling it at cost) is an entirely different matter.

you're making the normative and tautological argument that values are what they are because that's what (you think) they should be, not that there is any intrinsic reason for value to be defined only by a market. markets are great theoretical constructs, but real-world markets don't behave the way we always envision they ought to. they're subject to all sorts of external forces. beyond market settling times, what the…

> you're making the normative and tautological argument that values are what they are because that's what (you think) they should be, not that there is any intrinsic reason for value to be defined only by a market. markets are great theoretical constructs, but real-world markets don't behave the way we always envision they ought to. they're subject to all sorts of external forces.

It isn't about what I think. When people make purchases they will typically try to buy as cheaply as possible. If someone is looking to make a purchase they will typically go to whoever is offering it cheapest, if other people want to compete they will either have to offer it at the same price or cheaper.

Are you claiming this isn't true? Because I have witnessed it with my own eyes. I used to work in a Petrol Station we were ones of the cheapest places around and we had a lot of custom.

Other places that were more expensive were empty at the same time on the same days because they were more expensive. There is of course exceptions to this (Head and Shoulders Shampoo being the classic example) but they are outliers.

The same with a labour market. The market rate for a C# programmer is approximately £350-450 a day in the UK. More specialist development roles pay more e.g. Angular JS developers which are typically £500-750 a day (the last time I looked). There is less Angular JS developers that are available (low supply) so to attract talent companies that wish to hire need to raise the rate. However C# developers in the UK are much more common (higher supply) so companies won't pay those high prices.

Are you telling me this isn't happening? Because you can go to total jobs yourself and put C# developer Manchester and you will see difference in market rate yourself.

> beyond market settling times, what the delta between labor value and market value very likely indicates is some sort of mispricing in the market, often due to some external, malign manipulation (i.e., an application of force, or power). efficient markets should tend toward the labor value of production, that is, profits are minimized to that of idiosyncratic risk (like pandemics).

Not true. You are making several assumptions:

1) That there is abundance of said product (high supply).

2) People are wanting or needing to make a purchase.

3) That there isn't other competitors which have improved their processes or paying their employees less.

Number 2 being the most important IMO as everything else is normally equal. If nobody wants to buy it at the cost (or higher) you will be selling it at a loss.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#167
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course property rights are ideology. Anything to do with society and how it's organized is ideological. I think we ended up with private property because the alternatives have been tried and they are worse (e.g. tragedy of the commons).

I mean, Elinor Ostrom won a Nobel Prize for saying that there are loads of great alternatives besides choosing between property rights and the tragedy of the commons. https://econ.ucsb.edu/~tedb/Courses/UCSBpf/readings/OstromSJ...

Ostrom's work is parochial. Her real-life examples center on small populations adjacent to large natural resources with access negotiated via long-standing community mores. That simply doesn't apply to the high-density populations urban environment where most of humanity lives, and where community ties have less sway. In these situations where most interactions are transactional a robust and fair regime of property rights is probably the ideal solution. With property rights the transaction costs are borne by the property owner up front, while in the community-based the transaction costs are encoded in tradition and personal relationships.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#168
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labour theory of value is easily discredited. The market determines the value i.e. what people are willing to pay for something. The labour theory of value is simply describing the cost of producing something. Whether people are willing to buy it as that price (which would be same as selling it at cost) is an entirely different matter.

This is simply saying you disagree with the definition of the word value in LTV and want value to mean a different concept (what marxists call price or exchange-value). It's a semantic argument without real content.

Not at all. The cost of producing something is different from its market value.

Recently because of panic buying of loo roll, there wasn't any loo roll available in the UK. On Amazon for a 12 pack of decent quality loo roll was selling at 4 times the price of what it would be normally and they became sold out.

You can lament about the ridiculous panic buying. However demand outstripped supply and the price reflected this. In normal circumstances they wouldn't have sold for these prices and people would have had to sell at the regular price.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#169
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened because, while the Republican Party represents the same old interests, the increase in inequality forced a change in the Democratic Party. The bills were being paid by progressive elites, with high salaries and linked to big corporations. Low-wage earners, increasingly losing their jobs to other countries, felt as having lost their influence in the party.

Seems directly tied to the unions’ loss of power.

Unions still have a lot power in the Democratic Party -- in blue states they practically control the state legislatures.

However, depending on the union, rank and file members have lost power and representation.

Re: A review of Thomas Piketty’s “Capital and Ideology”

#170
post #137
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a theory that lessons learned by humanity are quickly forgotten after a few generations and thus we are condemned to trying the same old ideas (with slight tweaks) again until the current generation figures out they don't work.

Conversely, sometimes constraints and situations are different enough that "failed" ideas might succeed under the new constraints. The world is not a static place, and the environments in which many lessons were learned may not be relevant anymore.

Agree 100%.

However, I do believe that any ideas that people want to try because they believe human behavior has changed are guaranteed to fail.

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