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Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#51
post #47

The biggest single thing DF can do after graphical improvements is fixing the performance, perhaps make it not single threaded. I've been able to get past the graphics, and work through using the keyboard menus, but having the fortress come to a screeching crawl when there's a ton of things going on is when I stopped playing.

I picked up dwarf fortress 7-8 years ago when I was in eighth grade, and have been playing it on and off since. Performance is always what kills the game for me.

The game is supposed to be hard, but if you at all know what you're doing it's very easy to keep your fort well, and the only real risk of losing your fort is from you intentionally doing stuff that puts your fort at risk. You literally can defeat entire enemy armies by capturing them all with cage traps, for example.

This I can forgive.

Dwarf fortress is all about the crazy stupid ideas you can come up with after all. Want to build any interesting structures? Prepare for your dwarfs to get stuck every conceivable way one could possibly get stuck trying to build a simple wall. It can be incredibly tedious to accomplish something that ideally shouldn't take more than a few simple commands.

All of this I could live with. The performance without fail is what eventually kills my will to play. Want to do cool stuff with magma? Watch the game slow to a crawl. Want to run a big society? Watch the game slow to a crawl. Want to do anything remotely interesting? Watch the game slow to a crawl.

People go to obscene lengths to keep their performance, such as generating atom smashers that will 'delete' unwanted stuff from their fort completely, so the game stops wasting energy rendering 5000 rocks and how each dwarf is reminded about their childhood traumas as every rock reminds them of how their father died from a falling rock.

This game is so close to being great but falls short at the very last mile because the basic gameplay is fundamentally flawed. This is a simulator first, game second and it shows :(

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#52

Eagerly awaiting the graphical version to finally be available on Steam so that I can buy it and throw some money their way. I know the regular version has been available for free forever, but the ASCII graphics have always been a turn-off. I'm not opposed to MUD-style graphics in general, Dwarf Fortress is just so dense with stuff that I found I spent most of my time just trying to figure out what was going on.

Why didn’t you install a tileset? Most people don’t play with ASCII nowadays.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Never really advanced that much in the game to fight orcs. I just set up some good looking magma smelters, smelted whole bunch of jewels and sold them to caravan and elves and stuff. This was many years ago, I remember having a lot of fun, but also how excruciatingly tedious everything was. I remember setting dwarf tasks (allow/disallow) required a lot of micromanaging and DwarfTherapist didn't work well in linux. Re…

Perhaps you put your fortress down in a place with no enemies... most games I would have to immediately setup a system to keep enemies out or they'd massacre everyone pretty quickly! Once I had a dragon come and lay waste to everything, burning down all of the trees outside and setting fire to all the hapless dwarves.

No, I would normally disable invasion. When I enabled invasion, I'd just lock my dwarfs in my fortress and not leave the fortress for a season and eventually goblins abandon the invasion. I just never figured out how to prepare an army and attack, so figured, I'd much rather focus on things like farming, smelting, jewelry etc.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#54
post #47

The biggest single thing DF can do after graphical improvements is fixing the performance, perhaps make it not single threaded. I've been able to get past the graphics, and work through using the keyboard menus, but having the fortress come to a screeching crawl when there's a ton of things going on is when I stopped playing.

I picked up dwarf fortress 7-8 years ago when I was in eighth grade, and have been playing it on and off since. Performance is always what kills the game for me. The game is supposed to be hard, but if you at all know what you're doing it's very easy to keep your fort well, and the only real risk of losing your fort is from you intentionally doing stuff that puts your fort at risk. You literally can defeat entire ene…

Yeah trying to build structures where the dwarf decides he can't build it because a rock is in the spot he's supposed to build on and that rock is assigned to be used on another section of wall is very frustrating. Having to continually revisit builds was laborious.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#55

Next step: going 3d http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=167533.0 A raytraced DF front end would be breathtaking.

Get someone to write a DF to Minecraft map converter and then use Mineways to export to Blender? (Admittedly, this won't be a real-time affair...)

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#56
post #23
post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

In addition to DF I also play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, a venerable (and actively developed!) roguelike with the classic ASCII look, and I'd like to present a counterpoint: once it became possible to play DCSS online using the graphical tiles interface rather than the ASCII look, new players overwhelmingly prefer the graphical. Stats that I have seen indicate >95% choose the graphical tiles. I myself still play both…

Not to mention the lack of mouse support.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#57
post #21
post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

> I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

I think this is a general feature of software that is very 'techy' for a lack of a better term. Dwarf Fortress is a pretty niche, hardcore game and people who build this sort of stuff don't always have the best sense of what a UX design ought to look like that appeals to the general user. A lot of Linux desktop software is like that too.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#58
post #21
post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

graphical tileset have been around since way back tho https://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Graphics_set_...

and the ux is not going to change radically.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#59

Eagerly awaiting the graphical version to finally be available on Steam so that I can buy it and throw some money their way. I know the regular version has been available for free forever, but the ASCII graphics have always been a turn-off. I'm not opposed to MUD-style graphics in general, Dwarf Fortress is just so dense with stuff that I found I spent most of my time just trying to figure out what was going on.

It's not terribly difficult to add a graphical tileset to the free version, and there are a variety to choose from on the bay12games.com forums.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#60
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to DF I also play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, a venerable (and actively developed!) roguelike with the classic ASCII look, and I'd like to present a counterpoint: once it became possible to play DCSS online using the graphical tiles interface rather than the ASCII look, new players overwhelmingly prefer the graphical. Stats that I have seen indicate >95% choose the graphical tiles. I myself still play both…

Not to mention the lack of mouse support.

Native yes, but I think DFHack enables that... or DwarfTherapist
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