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Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

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Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#21

Post by zionic »

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#22

Post by bbeekley »

lawlessone wrote: post #7
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

Eagerly awaiting the graphical version to finally be available on Steam so that I can buy it and throw some money their way. I know the regular version has been available for free forever, but the ASCII graphics have always been a turn-off. I'm not opposed to MUD-style graphics in general, Dwarf Fortress is just so dense with stuff that I found I spent most of my time just trying to figure out what was going on.

Same, i would have given them money years ago but always had issues with Paypal

They have a Patreon now. I recently started supporting them there.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#23

Post by kibwen »

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

In addition to DF I also play Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, a venerable (and actively developed!) roguelike with the classic ASCII look, and I'd like to present a counterpoint: once it became possible to play DCSS online using the graphical tiles interface rather than the ASCII look, new players overwhelmingly prefer the graphical. Stats that I have seen indicate >95% choose the graphical tiles.

I myself still play both DCSS and DF in ASCII mode, but it seem reasonable to presume that the reason that old hands like us are fine with the ASCII look is because everyone who wasn't fine with it has self-selected themselves out of the sample. If their goal with the DF Steam release is to bring in new players (and compete with the likes of e.g. Rimworld, whose players are accustomed to graphics), then I see this as a sound decision.

(And of course, seconded that DF's nonsensical command UI is going to continue to stymie their efforts here.)

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#24

Post by danso »

TylerE wrote: post #13
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

The complete refusal to integrate any sort of meaningful mouse support is mind boggling.

Yeah that's the issue for me. I don't mind interpreting ASCII characters, but the UI/menu navigation feels intimidating. Rimworld will (I assume) never be the type of indepth simulation that DF is, but it spoiled me with its point-and-click GUI

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#25

Post by VonGuard »

zionic wrote: post #21
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Because gameplay matters 10X as much as graphics.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#26

Post by robohamburger »

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I like how the ascii graphics look better but the fact that they are not square drives me crazy.

I used tilesets when I was learning the game which I would recommend since it can be a lot to take in all at once.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#28

Post by kibwen »

zionic wrote: post #21
jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

I don't fault you, but let's be charitable to Tarn here: the austere style is deliberately because he didn't want to spend any more time than necessary on the graphics, when what interested him most is the systems and the simulations (remember that DF has been a solo passion project for well over a decade now). His experience making the precursor to Dwarf Fortress (which is technically the second game in the series) is what led him to this conclusion, so it is not borne out of ignorance.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#29

Post by alpaca128 »

stevens32 wrote: post #11
AdmiralAsshat wrote: post #6

Eagerly awaiting the graphical version to finally be available on Steam so that I can buy it and throw some money their way. I know the regular version has been available for free forever, but the ASCII graphics have always been a turn-off. I'm not opposed to MUD-style graphics in general, Dwarf Fortress is just so dense with stuff that I found I spent most of my time just trying to figure out what was going on.

If it's encouraging at all - after some hours into the game the ASCII actually starts looking like what they represent, enough that even when you see a new character given its context you can figure out what it's meant to represent without really thinking about it.

It's a bit like the Matrix. At first it's an overwhelming amount of mostly tiny green symbols and after a while things make more sense.

I'm definitely looking forward to this graphical version, though. And hoping that one day the game will even support multiple threads, but that's probably wishful thinking.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#30

Post by [deleted] »

VonGuard wrote: post #25
zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Because gameplay matters 10X as much as graphics.

[deleted]
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