Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements • Hacker News Board

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#31

Post by HlessClaudesman » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

VonGuard wrote: post #25

zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Because gameplay matters 10X as much as graphics.

Can confirm this assertion. I spent years building pretty games, but often our games are trounced by a rival with by with crappier graphics and better gameplay.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#32

Post by xsmasher » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #17

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

It's a lot like languages that refuse to change syntax (Erlang vs Elixir, both still not that great on syntax) because it's a luddite adherence to cultural experience or thinking. It shows a disregard for users and a self-imposed barrier to adoption. DF is horrid for usability. Just because I can screenshot notepad, print it out, and send mail on a turtle, does suffice to say I support an e-mail feature. Military squ…

The 3D package "Blender" bit the bullet and revamped their entire UI over the course of many years/releases to (1) bring it in line with other applications (ctrl-c, ctrl-v should work everywhere) and (2) make more options visible in the UI, so that they were discoverable. It's been wildly successful.

I hope Dwarf Fortress will have a similar refit over time.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#33

Post by whatsmyusername » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

Presentation still matters. It's why I have 1100+ hours in Rimworld and about 8 seconds in Dwarf Fortress.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#34

Post by rstupek » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 5:59 PM UTC

danso wrote: post #24

TylerE wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complete refusal to integrate any sort of meaningful mouse support is mind boggling.

Yeah that's the issue for me. I don't mind interpreting ASCII characters, but the UI/menu navigation feels intimidating. Rimworld will (I assume) never be the type of indepth simulation that DF is, but it spoiled me with its point-and-click GUI

I don't know if a point and click GUI precludes the depth of DF. If anything some things should be much easier to do with point and click. Factorio combines keyboard with point and click navigation and it has some depth to it.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#35

Post by bllguo » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #9

I spent significant time in DF in the early part of 2010s, but in the end found that it's just too much to micromanage - the game (at the time, at least) didn't offer much help with it, and after awhile, all the clutter really got in the way. If you like this kind of game, but would want something not as demanding, try Rimworld. Out of all dwarffortresslikes (I don't think that calling them Dward Fortress clones is f…

the key thing about rimworld for me is the multiplayer mod. there are many things i am willing to sacrifice for that experience.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#36

Post by dmos62 » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 6:01 PM UTC

zionic wrote: post #21

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

To me this is like saying you don't like books because they're black and white. With ASCII I've some textual description of what an object looks like (say, dwarf), but most of it is filled in by my imagination, and it does a much better job than any artist, and it's more dynamic, adapting to my mood and what I'm experiecing. Talk about high-tech. A tileset puts a great constraint on that. If there's a choice between ASCII and tiles, I'll always choose ASCII.

Dwarf Fortress UI ergonomics is another story.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#37

Post by QuesnayJr » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

jtolmar wrote: post #10

I never thought the ASCII graphics were a big problem in Dwarf Fortress; once you get used to it using a bunch of symbols as decoration, almost all the weird stuff ends up being things you placed yourself. On the other hand, the complete lack of UX consistency - whether a given submenu will use primary/secondary cursor keys, nested menus, or a pile of hotkeys - is a lot harder to deal with.

I don't mind ASCII graphics in general -- I used to play a lot of Rogue, Angband, and Nethack -- but DF is just so dense that I found it bewildering.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#38

Post by jers » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 6:04 PM UTC

VonGuard wrote: post #25

zionic wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree. The ASCII "graphics" (if you can really call them that) are a huge reason why I've never even considered playing it. I've read all about the mechanics, and they're interesting. I just don't understand why anyone would spend so much time developing so many intricate features when the presentation is so poor.

Because gameplay matters 10X as much as graphics.

I would normally agree, But hard to understand visuals (not intuitive) might discourage new players from trying the game. Those that do try the game will have a large cognitive load just to understand what is going on, and therefore will be unable to focus as much on the gameplay (that df is know for). So potential players and new players would be most affected.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#39

Post by hu3 » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

golergka wrote: post #9

I spent significant time in DF in the early part of 2010s, but in the end found that it's just too much to micromanage - the game (at the time, at least) didn't offer much help with it, and after awhile, all the clutter really got in the way. If you like this kind of game, but would want something not as demanding, try Rimworld. Out of all dwarffortresslikes (I don't think that calling them Dward Fortress clones is f…

Rimworld is easily moddable with C#.

And there's a vibrant mod community: https://discordapp.com/invite/rimworld

I've created a few simple mods and it was a pleasant experience.

Re: Dwarf Fortress: An actual look at graphical improvements

#40

Post by Phrodo_00 » Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 6:10 PM UTC

bootlooped wrote: post #3

Seems like simply upgrading some of the characters to equivalent emoji would have been a big improvement. I know many people don't like emoji, but for the most part they are pretty universal and easy to understand.

This is not really needed. The game doesn't actually use ascii output, it renders the text (windows terminals would probably be too slow), and it supports graphic packs than can show the dwarves as actual pictures of dwarves. The biggest problem is when a glyph is reused for multiple things, as in that case the graphic has to pick one of them or stay generic.