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Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

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Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#471

Post by brlewis »

mulmen wrote: post #449
beering wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

> A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no?

No, it just has to run in a browser.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#472

Post by danans »

sj4nz wrote: post #400
briandear wrote: post #374

What’s wrong with a “normal” app? No server required and data stays only on the device. The argument that the author is building a PWA because other people abuse privacy (with apps) doesn’t make much sense. Why not build the app, respect privacy, and be done with it? LocalStorage is not a substitute for an actual database, it’s a cache. The problem with the author’s technique is that privacy minded users clear their…

The problem with a "normal" app is now you are beholden to the rules/regulations/evaluations of a third party that can easily decide without recourse that your "app" should not be in their store. Even if your app "is fine" every update and upgrade incurs a delay through the third party's reviewing process before your users receive it. If the web browsers would provide _some API_ for persistent storage without yanking…

> Personally, I think web browsers are too large a surface area to secure/keep secure and the world is probably going to swing the opposite direction to native, downloadable applications without the interference of a third-party store.

Wait, you think downloadable native apps without any intermediary to validate them is more secure? What you're describing is basically the old shareware system, which was riddled with security issues.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#473

Post by seanabrahams »

alkonaut wrote: post #434

Did PWA's take off? What are some famous/big PWA's now? I can't remember ever "installing" anything in a browser as an app, or even being asked if I wanted to do it. Am I misunderstanding what they are?

PWAs haven't taken off because Apple won't implement full Push API support in Safari thus forcing you to go through the App Store if your web site or application needs push notifications. The App Store then complains if you try to publish an app that just wraps your web site so that you can have push notifications. It's... infuriating.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#474

Post by cryptonector »

mulmen wrote: post #449
beering wrote: post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the article, that's the issue the author was talking about: it's basically impossible to make an app that can store its data locally, instead of on some web server. All apps that you download from App Store can live offline, where they're usable without Internet or trusting some faraway web server. You can't make a web app that can do that, and to some people it smells like Apple trying to force developer…

I don't really understand this. If you want to make something local, make an app and distribute through the app store, that's what it is for. A web app on the other hand is connected by definition, no? Apple forcing local apps to distribute through the app store is a feature .

Apple's app store is a walled garden. The web isn't a walled garden. TFA wants to be able to operate outside the walled garden.

EDIT: Also, it's probably cheaper to develop one PWA than a PWA + N native apps, even if N=2. Probably lots cheaper. Now, perhaps there's a way to build a native app that is just a wrapper around WebKit/Safari and a PWA, but you'd still be subject to Apple's walled garden. For example, think of Gab or some such website whose apps have been banned by the various app stores...

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#475

Post by The_rationalist »

stcredzero wrote: post #426

Many web developers are turning to Electron in these cases but IMHO this is a waste of resources as the Electron runtime is not shared among the different apps running and there is only so many browser engines your computer can run before it has impact on its performance Why? Why isn't the case that the code which runs Electron, and library code JIT-ted by Electron can't be reused by other processes on the same syste…

It can be reused, it's just that nobody actually care enough about contributing to upstream electron. There are unofficial solutions like electron-shared. Ionic and Carlo also use only one chromium for every instance.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#476

Post by recursive »

withinboredom wrote: post #415
Jach wrote: post #383

Workaround: encode your app's state into window.location.hash

I've seen this before on an ecommerce site :sigh: Wife: Hey, check out this! [link with embedded state] Me: Wow, I'm logged in as you and can even see your payment information! Let's not buy from this site! Let's not do this. Ever.

Not all data is sensitive data.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#477

Post by arendtio »

What did we expect? I mean how long is it now that Apple refuses to implement the Push API properly (which in turn is a basic requirement for many PWA use-cases). They clearly try to use their influence to defend their App Store revenue. And to make it look good, they do it in the name of privacy.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#478

Post by swsieber »

snazz wrote: post #466
swsieber wrote: post #458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A feature for who? Not for users - now there's one less avenue for developers to get them something they want. Not for developers - now they have to jump through additional hoops to make something that works cross platform. Who exactly does this benefit?

Users want to be able to log in and see their data from any device. If the whole idea is that there is no server that the data is stored on, then you can't have a sync function, can you? Do any of you have an example of a good offline-only PWA that will be affected by this?

The whole point is that you don't need to download a big payload just because you haven't used it recently.

There are two ideas that go together well:

* The app can work offline

* The app doesn't need a server to function

Neither of those prevent a sync function from existing.

Right now, apps can do both of those. Why don' we want PWA's to be able to do the same? Why do I have to go through Apple's walled garden in order to so? Especially when said alternative is in a sandbox?

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#479

Post by gridlockd »

vetinari wrote: post #328
gridlockd wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would users have to pay extra? If right now you have a web app with paying users, that means you have an accounting system of paying users. You could publish a "native" app that simply serves that web app through a web view, using those same accounts.

The issue is elsewhere: you need to pay your developers to develop the second app. You would most probably need to bring in one more team, for each native platform. Will you get new users from that? If yes, they will pay for that (in principle). If not, just some existing users would migrate? Then you just increased your cost without increasing your revenues. So you would need to gain enough new users to make it wort…

You don't need a dedicated developer to ship a WebView app. That's the whole selling point behind tech like Cordova. Most of your code can stay the same and most likely all of it will stay Javascript (or whatever you are transpiling to it).

Again, if you are actually affected by this issue right now, you have a web app that is more or less trivially ported to a web view app. Your user don't have to migrate, they already have accounts, they just need to download the app again, this time from the App Store.

> In a nutshell, it is the same reason why Adobe won't port their apps to Linux.

Linux is a non-market for Adobe apps. On the other hand, if you have an offline PWA right now, you most likely already have iOS users that you would probably lose if you start confronting them with this "7 days and your data is gone" bullshit.

Re: Private client-side-only PWAs are hard, but now Apple made them impossible

#480

Post by StephenCanis »

alkonaut wrote: post #434

Did PWA's take off? What are some famous/big PWA's now? I can't remember ever "installing" anything in a browser as an app, or even being asked if I wanted to do it. Am I misunderstanding what they are?

PWAs are also useful where you want visitors to be able to access a portion of a website while offline. I run a site that hosts audio tours[1] for museums and walking tours. I use PWAs to allow visitors to quickly download the tour onto their phone in case they don't have a data plan or a portion of the tour will not have cell service.

Apple definitely makes it difficult to use them effectively. For example you need to use Safari on iOS in order to download the PWA - it won't work if you're on chrome or another third party browser.

[1]https://www.youraudiotour.com

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