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Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

nytimes.com

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Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#111

Post by toomuchtodo »

bosswipe wrote: post #108
toomuchtodo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question: what’s wrong with class warfare if certain classes are causing an overwhelming amount of the problem? Typically, you go to war against whatever is putting your life in peril.

Do you mean the bottom or the top class?

Top most class.

https://ourworld.unu.edu/en/the-worlds-richest-people-also-e...

“On Wednesday, British charity Oxfam released a study that found the richest 10 percent of people produce half of the planet’s individual-consumption-based fossil fuel emissions, while the poorest 50 percent — about 3.5 billion people — contribute only 10 percent. Yet those same 3.5 billion people are “living overwhelmingly in the countries most vulnerable to climate change,” according to the report. According to the data used by the report, individual consumption — as opposed to consumption by governments and international transport — makes up 64 percent of worldwide climate emissions.

Oxfam estimates that the world’s richest 10 percent of people have carbon footprints that are 60 times higher as the poorest 10 percent. Any estimation that generalizes large populations is difficult to make, but researchers at Oxfam also estimate that the emissions of the world’s richest 1 percent create an even larger emissions gap: the 1 percent could emit 30 times more than the poorest 50 percent and 175 times more than the poorest 10 percent.”

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#112

Post by arrosenberg »

cat199 wrote: post #94
gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

> democratic values devils advocate, but if it ends up that democratic states don't handle the response as well as authoritarian ones out of differing views of individual rights, this isn't necessarily a 'win' for the democratic side of the fence

You'd also have to acknowledge that the (Chinese) authoritarian response is what allowed the outbreak to get this bad in the first place. In the United States the Federal response has looked much more like the authoritarian response — no action for regular people, misdirection, profiteering, and grabbing for more power. Compared to the responses we saw under more democratic government against Zika, Ebola, Avian Flu, and Swine Flu its an embarrassment.

The individual states that are responding the best are all heavily liberal/democratic led states - CA, WA, NY, IL. Some of the less liberal states are doing good (OH), but most are doing really terribly (FL). The evidence seems to point in the direction of working democratic government being best suited for handling this crisis. Since the world largely does not have working democratic government in 2020, we have a pandemic.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#113

Post by z3ncyberpunk »

BurningFrog wrote: post #91
gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

> More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Except nobody actually thinks that. This is only about finding a way to measure if life in China is returning to normal, without having to trust the Chinese authorities.

They clearly do think like that since they came up with the metric. They CHOSE to make that an analytical anchor because it benefits them to see production levels rise again.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#114

Post by dx87 »

losteric wrote: post #100
nradov wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because I want to be able to install shelves in the garage or put a new oven in the kitchen without having to negotiate with a landlord.

How many people does your situation apply to? Personally, I prefer having a landlord take care of appliances over the freedom to make my own changes.

Probably a lot. I've never seen an apartment that lets you make any changes beyond putting in your own furniture. No painting walls, no hanging pictures, changing carpets, etc. You're stuck with whatever bargain bin ammenities the landlord picked, unless you feel like packing up and moving. Plus, your rent will probably go up at a similar rate to inflation, whereas a mortgage payment will stay the same as long as you didn't sign up for an adjustable rate mortgage.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#115

Post by paulryanrogers »

coryrc wrote: post #107
paulryanrogers wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A car isn't a "want" for most people outside of major US cities. It's a need. It doesn't have to stay this way. Smaller cities and towns can invest in public transportation. Activities which must be in person could be decentralized to more local sites.

Seattle/King County metro diesel buses gets 50 passenger-miles per gallon of diesel. Better than average, but not enough for preventing climate change. They're also still running nearly all buses empty these past weeks, so that's 0 mpg.

Buses don't have to run on diesel

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#116

Post by twblalock »

briefcomment wrote: post #68
erik_seaberg wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the people working from home are outnumbered by the people who can't work and are quickly going broke.

No one's disputing that. It makes sense that if people who can work home do so, the environment will be better than if they don't work from home. Also, many people who cannot work from home at the moment are still driving to work (restaurant workers, grocery store workers, other retail). This current situation isn't too far off from a state where just those who can work from home do so, and the rest drive to work. An…

> This current situation isn't too far off from a state where just those who can work from home do so, and the rest drive to work.

A lot of "the rest" are staying home, at least in California. Only certain businesses are allowed to remain open.

Unemployment claims are up quite a bit, especially in California and Washington due to the shelter in place orders -- and that's data from last week, when only portions of California were locked down.

Most retail and restaurant employees are at home not getting paid, and many have already been laid off. A lot of those people live paycheck to paycheck and won't be able to pay rent on April 1st.

I know some retail employees who are furloughed and still being paid, but their companies probably can't afford that for more than a few months.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#118

Post by barkingcat »

amelius wrote: post #17
gdubs wrote: post #4

I’ve been thinking a lot about the next looming crisis: Climate Change. On Bloomberg radio a few weeks ago, an analyst / money manager was talking about how his firm was looking at satellite imagery of pollution in China to measure their economic recovery. More pollution == “better”. Something is clearly unsustainable with that formula. Like the virus, the longer we wait to take action, the more expensive it is and t…

> The world has pressed the pause button for a moment. Well so far it has only been 1 or 2 weeks, comparable to the annual X-mas break in duration. So I'm curious: are the effects really significantly different here so far?

Christmas you would most likely see a significant rise in activity and pollution as people mass travel, mass consume, and mass buy. How many turkeys were slaughtered for Christmas dinner? That's activity for the entire food chain.

For ALL of the service industries, Christmas and New Year are when they make a huge bulk of revenue.

Christmas is only a break for those who are privileged. Talk to you neighbourhood restaurant server. Ask them how restful Christmas season is and they will tell you that Christmas is their most stressful time in the entire year.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#119

Post by twblalock »

deevolution wrote: post #19

So far, the COVID-19 pandemic is showing us that People, rather than Consumption, matter most. We need consumption to support people, yes, but Economic expansion and increasing consumption can't go on infinitely. Most people shouldn't be able to afford a car - they should be taking public transit - but they can obtain one because they take out loans. The american fracking industry shouldn't exist, but it can because…

I draw the opposite conclusion -- public transit makes pandemics worse and everyone who owns a car is very happy they have one.

Re: Traffic and Pollution Plummet as U.S. Cities Shut Down

#120

Post by briefcomment »

Noos wrote: post #110
briefcomment wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was comparing the current situation with the state where everyone is forced to stay at home. Right now, everyone is not forced to stay at home. If you're saying that the current situation is closer to everyone staying at home than to business as usual, you're probably right. However, where I live, a majority of the restaurants are open (just doing drive through). Tutoring is possibly something that can be done onli…

Pretty much half the retail that doesn't sell food is closed where I live. The local mall is entirely closed, and many businesses that are open are reducing hours or doing "curbside service" meaning a lot of the staff is probably furloughed. My own business is either shut down for 10 more days, or 32 days at least, depending on whether we're under nonessential services. This is not sustainable in the least man. Event…

I said

"I was comparing the current situation with the state where everyone is forced to stay at home. Right now, everyone is not forced to stay at home. If you're saying that the current situation is closer to everyone staying at home than to business as usual, you're probably right."

So I'm not saying this is sustainable. This definitely gives us a better idea of what pollution and driving may look like if people who can stay home do stay home, than by trying to guess what it would look like before the shutdowns started. I also said "The current situation is definitely biased towards less driving though".

I just want to point out that we shouldn't label this situation as some unobtainable ideal when it comes to pollution, but rather as a real world glimpse of what pollution could be if more people worked from home than have in the past.

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