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Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#361

Post by flocial »

adev_ wrote: post #78

Not so surprising. You have also the same outliers with Hong Kong and Taiwan. - In Japan, people naturally respect social distancing. Touching someone is considered rude, everyone bows instead of shaking hands and nobody kiss. - Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. - Washing hands is common, being clean (bath cult…

"- Last but probably very relevant: they have a completely different place of the elders in society. In Japan, the elders often live alone, sustain their life by themselves: it's a matter of proud. Even contact with their own kids is often sparse. Meaning, probably also lower risk of infection. "

The elderly in Japan are extremely active and are very well socialized with other elderly thanks to public transportation and compact cities. They are very independent and mobile. Considering that Japan never took active quarantine measures on a nationwide scale, it's honestly a mystery why Japan is an outlier.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#362

Post by unishark »

l_davis wrote: post #180
zrail wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where would we find operation masks? s far as I can tell they’re still sold out literally everywhere.

I ordered cotton masks from Etsy. They are supposed to arrive by the end of the month. Select vendors in the US for speed. Amazon has lots of cotton masks, but they all seem to be shipped from China, which means they will take awhile to arrive. (Am assuming US buyers. Looks like Etsy vendors are all over though so you can probably find a vendor locally in many countries.) There are plenty of patterns for cotton masks…

I ordered something from Japan last week. I was worried about delays due to travel restrictions and they had a warning about them on the website.

But it arrived in the US two days. It wasn't overnight shipping or anything fancy or expensive either. I was expecting 5+ days.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#363

Post by bsder »

danenania wrote: post #354
bsder wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If they weren’t effective at reducing infection healthcare workers wouldn’t wear them. Have you seen the pictures of healthcare workers using "effective" mask protocol? Have you also noticed that said protocol almost always includes goggles ? If I can't trace the seal lines on your face for an hour after you remove your mask, it isn't doing shit for you as a healthy person. If you are sick , however, that's a diffe…

"If I can't trace the seal lines on your face for an hour after you remove your mask, it isn't doing shit for you as a healthy person." Just because it isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it's not doing anything. Exposure isn't binary--the quantity matters. Healthcare workers have very little room for error because they're constantly exposed to large quantities of the virus. For them, blocking 80% of droplets from a co…

> Also, this whole "only sick people should wear masks" refrain rather exasperatingly ignores that we don't know who's sick and who isn't.

And your argument exasperatingly continues to assume infinite availability of masks.

The masks most help when people are coughing or sneezing significantly. That's really obvious last I checked.

Someone not coughing or sneezing is spreading the virus roughly the same amount whether they wear a mask or not. Covid-19 doesn't actually seem to produce nasal secretions like the flu does so surface contact spread isn't quite the same.

If you want to spread good advice, tell healthy people to start wearing their glasses instead of contact lenses. It's probably more effective than a mask on a healthy person--especially since it prevents people from poking at their eyes with dirty fingers.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#364

Post by flocial »

discordance wrote: post #221
adev_ wrote: post #78

Not so surprising. You have also the same outliers with Hong Kong and Taiwan. - In Japan, people naturally respect social distancing. Touching someone is considered rude, everyone bows instead of shaking hands and nobody kiss. - Almost everybody wear mask when they are sick to avoid contaminating others. They do that since way before Cornavirus and on voluntary based. - Washing hands is common, being clean (bath cult…

Have you caught the JR Yamanote in peak hour? I’ve never been touched by so many strangers so much in life. Workers in japan also rarely take sick leave, even at this time.

Even in mildly packed trains people are basically breathing all over each other.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#365

Post by danenania »

bsder wrote: post #363
danenania wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I can't trace the seal lines on your face for an hour after you remove your mask, it isn't doing shit for you as a healthy person." Just because it isn't 100% effective doesn't mean it's not doing anything. Exposure isn't binary--the quantity matters. Healthcare workers have very little room for error because they're constantly exposed to large quantities of the virus. For them, blocking 80% of droplets from a co…

> Also, this whole "only sick people should wear masks" refrain rather exasperatingly ignores that we don't know who's sick and who isn't. And your argument exasperatingly continues to assume infinite availability of masks. The masks most help when people are coughing or sneezing significantly . That's really obvious last I checked. Someone not coughing or sneezing is spreading the virus roughly the same amount wheth…

"And your argument exasperatingly continues to assume infinite availability of masks."

Except the part where I wrote "supply issues aside". Of course there's a limited supply. That doesn't mean masks wouldn't be effective if we had enough of them. I think we should prioritize making more, not just for healthcare workers, but for everyone.

"Someone not coughing or sneezing is spreading the virus roughly the same amount whether they wear a mask or not."

Scientific consensus so far is that coughing, sneezing, and talking is responsible for the majority of spread. Surface spread is secondary.

"probably more effective than a mask on a healthy person"

Again, we don't know who's healthy and who isn't.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#366

Post by lovemenot »

l_davis wrote: post #352
lovemenot wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Absolute orientalist BS. I politely disagree with your observations, though I acknowledge that I may not be right, I have observed and discussed this behaviour dozens of times with Japanese people in Japan for over twenty years and most find your parent's observation to be correct. Please don't call people a racist for espousing reasonable views that you don't happen to believe.

I think I understand the point behind that post. Many Japanese believe that they are special and superior and love to sell that to non Japanese. It can be really annoying, and it isn't true that as a nationality they are somehow inherently superior.

If you can, get over your feelings.

I do not believe Japanese are superior. Nor do I believe that most Japanese people think that way. On the contrary. YMMV though.

This thread isn't about that anyway. We are just trying to understand what, if anything, has worked so far in one country and what is not working elsewhere.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#367

Post by flocial »

philliphaydon wrote: post #295

The people who claim wearing a mask doesn’t work are missing one of the biggest benefits to wearing a mask. If you are sick and don’t have symptoms yet. It help reduce your chances of infecting others. Yeah they arent 100% fool proof. But it’s better than nothing. If it reduces my chance of getting sick by 1% and that 1% turns out to be the bit that makes my daughter not get sick then it’s worth it.

I think that once this crisis passes we will have an updated view on the true effectiveness of masks. All the Asian countries that flattened the curve heavily endorsed the wearing of masks. But there may be other factors at work rather than the direct efficacy of masks (not touching your face, sending a social signal to keep distance, elevating humidity around your mouth and nose, etc.).

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#368

Post by Aeolun »

ALittleLight wrote: post #342
TheCoelacanth wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't do much to protect you from getting infected. They do a lot to prevent you from infecting other people.

If masks don't prevent you from getting infected then why do medical professionals want masks? Everything I've read suggests that masks reduce your risk of infection, and that pairs with the common sense idea that filters in front of your respiratory tract entrance would reduce the risk of foreign particles entering and infecting you.

Pretty much all masks protect you to some extend, but the extend and the way in which they offer protection is different.

Surgical masks protect you from inhaling larger particles to some extend, but there’s large holes in it’s coverage, so you still basically get a bunch of contaminated air in, especially when spending time in a saturated room. What they do do however is prevent you from spraying droplets all over everyone near when you sneeze/cough/exhale, and that’s their main benefit. Protecting others from the bacteria and viruses in those droplets.

I think a study was done that indicated they make you about 30% less likely to get sick.

More highly rated masks (generally called respirators), will completely seal your mouth and nose (at least to a much greater extend than a surgical mask) and prevent bad stuff from coming in much better. Generally this is indicated in the form of a rating N95, N99, N100 (actually 99.97). And indicates what percentage of bad stuff the mask is likely to keep out. They’re less useful for protecting others, since there’s still some exhalation valve to get rid of excess air (still mostly same usefulness as surgical mask though).

Medical professionals generally want the N95 masks, but they’ll happily settle for just a surgical mask if that’s the only thing available.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#369

Post by [deleted] »

brigandish wrote: post #341
autokad wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think so, but its definitely a contradiction in logic...

That would depend on the assumptions, those being: - context i.e. clinical setting vs on the street - type of mask - skill set of those using the equipment For example, knives are very effective in surgery when they are: - in a surgical theatre - a scapel - used by a surgeon I don't suggest doing surgery in the street with a knife from your kitchen draw used by a teenager.

[deleted]

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#370

Post by Aeolun »

armada651 wrote: post #274
objektif wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But we are being told that masks don't hep with prevention. Do you mean that sick ones do that not to spread?

The recommendation is not to use masks unless you are sick.

Japanese people use masks all the time though, and it seems to help?
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