Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#331

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:19 AM UTC

tagrun wrote: post #323

boomboomsubban wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing a mask from your face will put your hands in contact with vulnerable areas that otherwise would be avoided. Additionally, if a homemade mask were to become contaminated, repeated handling could put you and others at greater risk.

I'm baffled how one office spreading patently false information that defies logic and physics could be so effective. Not using a mask as community will ensure that virtually everywhere is potentially contaminated and you are under a larger risk and at all times --not isolated to the moment when you remove the mask (which people typically do at a place where they can wash/cleanse their hands anyway). So for crying out…

>Not using a mask as community will ensure that virtually everywhere is potentially contaminated and you are under a larger risk and at all time

How does a healthy person wearing a mask prevent contamination?

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#332

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

tagrun wrote: post #316

boomboomsubban wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surgical masks? To prevent the spread of bodily fluids.

No. You clearly have no idea how this works, and are basically an armchair health expert spreading patently false and dangerous information. Health care workers are required to use masks to protect immunocompromised patients. In Japan, people use masks to protect the community and goes both ways ---which is why it works.

>Health care workers are required to use masks to protect immunocompromised patients

Protect them from what? Their potentially disease carrying bodily fluids.

I don't have the slightest clue what misinformation you think I'm spreading. You have responded to four of my posts, and none of the replies give any reason to think healthy people should wear masks.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#333

Post by Reason077 » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:26 AM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #182

Reason077 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately there simply aren't enough masks produced in western countries. If governments directed factories to produce face masks, like they are currently doing for ventilators, then we could have enough. And I believe most people would actually wear them if they were widely available and governments directed it. It seems like that would cost less, and might also be more effective than shutting down half the econ…

If it were more effective, don't you think at least one country on earth would have thought of that? Masks may be able to help a little, but odds are good that if you're in a bus with an infected person coughing or sneezing, you'll be infected with or without a (regular surgical-style) mask. Those masks are almost entirely designed to keep stuff in, not to keep them out of your nose/mouth/eyes. The slightly reduced i…

> “Those masks are almost entirely designed to keep stuff in”

“Keeping stuff in” is exactly the point. Covid-19 causes mild symptoms for most, so many people walk around infecting others without even realising it. Where there is widespread use of masks, transmission is greatly slowed/reduced.

The point of wearing the mask is not only to protect yourself, but even more so to protect others in case you are infected.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#334

Post by boomboomsubban » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #319

boomboomsubban wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing a mask from your face will put your hands in contact with vulnerable areas that otherwise would be avoided. Additionally, if a homemade mask were to become contaminated, repeated handling could put you and others at greater risk.

Wash your hands. Wash your mask. There aren’t enough surgical masks for healthcare workers and they’re reusing them after bleaching or exposure to UV. You can reuse a dish cloth after washing it.

This only works if you change your mask every time you remove it, and have no further contact with the mask until you clean it.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#335

Post by brigandish » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:31 AM UTC

javagram wrote: post #315

whyenot wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been asserted by so many different people, but there doesn't seem to be much scientific evidence backing it up. Why are you so sure?

There is evidence indicating it helps to prevent infection and to help prevent spreading infection. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5153448/ “The overall effectiveness of vaccination and mask wearing was 9.9% and 8.6%, respectively.” There aren’t nearly enough masks to go around for the general population so it would be reckless to recommend people in the USA wear (commercial quality) them right now due…

That paper also has:

> Hand washing (1.447, 1.274–1.644) and gargling (1.319, 1.183–1.471), however, were not associated with protection. In the natural setting, hand washing and gargling showed a negative association, which may have been due to inappropriate infection control measures or aggregating infected and non-infected children to conduct those measures.

So hand washing isn't effective and masks are? That's the opposite of what we're being told for a different disease. Are you going to say we shouldn't wash our hands?

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#336

Post by tagrun » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:31 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #331

tagrun wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled how one office spreading patently false information that defies logic and physics could be so effective. Not using a mask as community will ensure that virtually everywhere is potentially contaminated and you are under a larger risk and at all times --not isolated to the moment when you remove the mask (which people typically do at a place where they can wash/cleanse their hands anyway). So for crying out…

>Not using a mask as community will ensure that virtually everywhere is potentially contaminated and you are under a larger risk and at all time How does a healthy person wearing a mask prevent contamination?

> How does a healthy person wearing a mask prevent contamination?

How do you know they're healthy? That's the key, because asymptomatic cases are estimated to be the main driver of this pandemic by far. And it's only worsened by the fact that only few tests are available.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#337

Post by Reason077 » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:36 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #228

Hamuko wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whats a key difference between South Korea and Italy? Widespread use of face masks. Gonna wager a guess that there are vast amount of differences between South Korea and Italy that could affect the spread of a virus.

Indeed. Italy has among the highest rates of working adults living with their parents in the world for one.

That’s a very good point.

There must be multiple social and environmental factors that have contributed to Italy being hit so hard (age of population, high rates of smoking and high levels of air pollution have also been suggested), but that could well be one of them.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#338

Post by tagrun » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:37 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #327

tagrun wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why that someone also needs to wear a mask. Don't worry, people aren't morons and have been using masks in Japan and other countries for decades just fine. Yes, masks can hold contaminated droplets --that's their purpose. When people don't use masks on the other hand, those droplets that would have remained on the mask now end up everywhere else, and now you have a far more spread vectors with basically every…

If you are sick, masks are great. Even homemade ones. This is about healthy people wearing masks.

> If you are sick, masks are great. Even homemade ones. This is about healthy people wearing masks.

First, masks work better when both sides use them. In Japan, healthy people wear masks as well during flu seasons because it makes it offers better protection than wearing nothing.

Second, in the specific context of COVID-19, how do you know they're healthy? That's the key, because asymptomatic cases are estimated to be the main driver of this pandemic by far. And it's only worsened by the fact that only few tests are available.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#339

Post by lovemenot » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:41 AM UTC

pdr2020 wrote: post #196

Zarel wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I've heard from my friends living in Japan – people are sick, but the government is refusing to test them because they want to keep the numbers down so the Olympics don't get cancelled. But other threads further up pointed out that even with massive under-testing, it should be hard to cover up a COVID-19 outbreak if it spread exponentially as expected – there would be reports of hospitals being overloade…

If the government has such strict criteria for testing, might it also not have implemented strict 'stages' that you must proceed through after a diagnosis? And a further, stricter criteria before even allowing hospitalisation? My other suspicion is severe cases will try their best to hold off on self-reporting given the strict government testing criteria and lack of awareness/panic. This is one key way that Japanese…

>> Japanese unfortunately, much more so ..

Look, I can and frequently do make a case for weak Japanese, strong Americans in various domains. But not about this.

If culture is a part of the reason for divergence of rates of infection, it's certainly in Japan's favour.

Remember, we are talking about society overall. Not what might benefit any given individual.

Re: Why is Japan still a coronavirus outlier?

#340

Post by tagrun » Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 5:44 AM UTC

boomboomsubban wrote: post #332

tagrun wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. You clearly have no idea how this works, and are basically an armchair health expert spreading patently false and dangerous information. Health care workers are required to use masks to protect immunocompromised patients. In Japan, people use masks to protect the community and goes both ways ---which is why it works.

>Health care workers are required to use masks to protect immunocompromised patients Protect them from what? Their potentially disease carrying bodily fluids. I don't have the slightest clue what misinformation you think I'm spreading. You have responded to four of my posts, and none of the replies give any reason to think healthy people should wear masks.

I gave two reasons, I'll give them here again:

1. Masks do work. Wearing a mask obviously provides a better protection than nothing for a healthy person.

You can also read a few studies https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/003335491012500206 https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/744899/facemasks-hand-hyg...

Mask isn't a substitute for hygiene and social-distancing, it's a complementary countermeasure.

2. You don't know for sure a person is healthy right now, and asymptomatic cases are the main drivers of the contagion.

The misinformation you're persistently perpetuating is that US surgeon general is right in saying

> Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!

>They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!

which is not only wrong but also outright dangerous. How dangerous is this? Look at the spread rate and the number of cases in US vs Japan.

Yes, there is panic buying. The Japanese government is handling the situation by managing the responsible distribution of the masks itself. Like most countries, US may not be able to meet the full demand immediately for the masks that are necessary to slow down the spread, and yes, health care workers do need them, but that can't justify giving dangerous advice and lies to public.