Live data from Hacker News

MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

421–430 of 465 posts

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#421
post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

The SAT is a useful bullshit filter. I graded a physics class in college and the number of students wanting 50%+ credit for a wrong answer "because they tried" was high.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#422
post #39
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question shouldn't be is the SAT unfairly biased towards families with money, since of course it is, but is the SAT less biased towards families with money then other criteria. Having parents with money and connections lets you get tutoring to increase your GPA, tutoring to write essays, connections to get internships, the free time to do clubs, training to excel in sports, and so many other things.

Right! I don't understand why people in this thread are apparently mad rich families for this? Like a family with means is doing all the things to raise a socialized, well rounded, experienced, well-read and tutored, worldly person. Like god damn I can't think of a better use for the money as a parent. I get that college admissions is a contest and performative but hot damn this thread is full of people mad at other…

> socialized, well rounded, experienced, well-read and tutored, worldly person

Test prep doesn't help with any of that.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SAT scores are used because they turn out to be good predictors of success at college. They aren't the only measure used, probably about a third. For example, my SAT scores were average for an MIT admission, but I was rejected.

There is a lot of evidence that this is absolutely not the case. On of my links in a prior comment indicated there are now many universities that are standard test optional and keep stats comparing the performance between standard test students versus other students to find no difference in performance. Consider your example. You are a famous developer well known for a performance oriented programming language. Of th…

My degree is in Aerospace Engineering, not CS :-)

Though I shamefully admit my lack of academic CS knowledge shows its face now and then. I sometimes find myself reinventing the wheel.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#424
post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re hiring two Ph.D. holding psychometricians right now. https://careers.collegeboard.org/search-jobs?title=Psychomet... In many cases, not, in many case.

Assistant? Associate? The titles don't give too much confidence.

These are positions for which a Ph.D. is an absolute requirement. Compare Assistant or Associate Professor.

> About you

> Education/Experience:

> Doctorate in psychometrics, educational research, educational measurement or a related field is required. New PhD level applicants will be considered, as will applicants with additional experience. A minimum of 3 years relevant experience is required for the Associate level.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#425

I'm sure that I will get in trouble for this but... The SAT/ACT system is corrupt. It's plain an simple. Follow the money. It's as simple as that. The root of most issues involve simple economics. (Maybe a little broad of a statement, so take it with a grain of salt, but certainly applies in this case.) The tests are built on revenue from the taking the tests and industry selling you prep material. I don't have time…

How can you be sure of something that you cannot prove?

Provable is a tiny subset of true.

Much truth is accessible just by looking.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Adoptees have IQs in line with their biological parents, not their adoptive ones. It’s heritable like every other psychological variable I’m aware of. Speed of cognition is absolutely correlated with IQ but the difference in speed doesn’t cause the differences in results. Both are downstream of being more intelligent. > Speed of information processing and general intelligence > One hundred university students were gi…

There is no evidence connecting IQ to hereditary traits. This has been demonstrably proven false multiple times. What you are arguing is eugenics and that is patently false.

No, the definition of "eugenics" is the arrangement of human reproduction to maximize desired traits.

The g factor is highly heritable, and countless academic works and studies establish it as such, well beyond any reasonable doubt.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. A raffle system, while inevitable in some cases (H-1B lottery comes to mind), is totally inappropriate when applied to a standardized test. Quite on the contrary, a standardized test aims to measure capability (however abstract it is), not luck.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to go with a lottery system after some point. Most people with a ACT over ~30 are going to be completely capable of performing the coursework for an undergraduate degree at MIT. And anyone with a perfect score is going to be fine anyway. There are plenty of world-class institutions in the USA that would be more than happy to accept these peopl.

>I think it's perfectly reasonable to go with a lottery system after some point.

Only the wealthy can afford to apply to every single "prestige" college and university available. A lottery where some people get twenty tickets and others get one or two seems just as silly.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a good point I hadn’t considered, they are fairly niche

Top schools are more than fairly niche, especialy at the very top of the very top like MIT, which is extremeley niche. Source: I was a poor kid who got into UC Berkeley based largely on my SAT II scores. Any poor kid seriously considering applying to MIT or Cal is high information enough to be aware SAT IIs exist. Do ya'll understand how patronizing and insulting this bigotry of low expectations is to brilliant trail…

> PS I'm rich and early retired now thanks to (Bitcoin and) setting/enforcing high standards for myself, not lowered expectations.

Awesome!

> My gifts are largely verbal, so the Writing subject test was my once-in-a-lifetime to demonstrate objective superiority to my peer group, regardless of income and race.

Same, though I don't really consider skills like oratory to be a gift; rather I think it's something you simply refine with time and experience.

I was actually the first to score a perfect score (at the time) in my English Placement Exam at the University I ultimately started at, however, my writing legibility is admittedly horrendous and I was docked 2% after I was asked to read it aloud for the inconvenience of the reviewers: yielding a 98%. It was about the Tobacco Industry--I understood this topic well as my childhood best friend's Father was an Exec at Phillip Morris.

But, and I have to ask as I think this follows the Bitcoin meritocracy ethos: wouldn't you have preferred to have your admission be based on your ability to have positively contributed to your field of study rather than some arbitrary score on an exam which, if you were like me had to prep and take several times before you took it serious? And probably purposely forgot 85% of it as soon as you got up and walked out the door?

I mean isn't awesome to see a project where some of the most World renowned Academic Cryptographers (Adam Back) work alongside College dropouts (Peter Todd), and absolute nutters in the best way (Amir Takki) contribute to a project on equal terms and be judged by their skills rather than anything else? Especially when you see how vital its role can be in your financial well being?

That's what I always thought University was going to be, rather than the petty politicking non-sense I saw. Which is acutely seen when trying to get Peer Reviewed Journals to be even approved for review.

I personally have since shunned academia after my experience, I have a BS in Biology and that was enough BS for one life time; but a part of me wonders what I could contribute to my field now that I have experience in Agriculture, Culinary, and (very limited) Aerospace fields as well as a background in Automotive Industry and its Supply Chains.

Side note: I was that guy in class in University setting up study groups among my peers for notes, homework assignments, and lecture recordings because I had to work during school hours and I couldn't attend class nor afford the required texts; so I understand very well what having to over-perform despite not having the supposed 'bare essentials,' is like as my upper division years were during the financial crisis.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#430
post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

But that's entirely the point. The people bitching about how the SAT isn't fair aren't smart poor people who are being beaten out by upper middle class losers, but rather upper middle class losers being beaten out by smart poor people. They tell themselves that the test isn't fair, but a part of them knows that they could never get into the 1500's even with all the prep in the world, so they try to get the admissions…

This is only for subject tests. You still have to submit regular sat scores
Post reply on HN