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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#201

Post by knzhou »

hintymad wrote: post #194
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

The problem of SAT is not that it can be prep'd, but it is too easy to be differentiating, and too simple so people can game it. By the way, isn't depending on SAT for years and everyone bitching about SAT is a gross failure of our education system? Take any serious test, be it STEM competitions, JEE, or NCEE, multiple-choice questions are the easiest part. The differentiating questions are all kinds of word problems…

> By the way, isn't depending on SAT for years and everyone bitching about SAT is a gross failure of our education system? Take any serious test, be it STEM competitions, JEE, or NCEE, multiple-choice questions are the easiest part. The differentiating questions are all kinds of word problems. Yet the US can't afford such test, but countries like India and China can.

We do have this kind of system in place, I'm closely involved in it. The Olympiads in the US basically fill the vacuum of objective assessment at a high level. The entry round for each Olympiad is pretty similar in level to, e.g. what you would get in JEE-Advanced. But they're also far less popular...

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#202

Post by austincheney »

WalterBright wrote: post #184
austincheney wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm sure the writers of the SAT are well aware of this, but full IQ tests just don't scale. First of all its generally faulty to presume what others are thinking. Secondly, standardized admissions testing in its current form should be eliminated and there is a fair amount of data to support this[1][2]. If schools really want to discriminate on performance they should test for originality, composition, and decision…

SAT scores are used because they turn out to be good predictors of success at college. They aren't the only measure used, probably about a third. For example, my SAT scores were average for an MIT admission, but I was rejected.

There is a lot of evidence that this is absolutely not the case. On of my links in a prior comment indicated there are now many universities that are standard test optional and keep stats comparing the performance between standard test students versus other students to find no difference in performance.

Consider your example. You are a famous developer well known for a performance oriented programming language. Of the many computer science students that graduated from MIT I cannot name any who are as well known for such. It is impossible to say that if your SAT scores were closer to perfect you might have gained admission. Regardless you have clearly excelled where others have not regardless of institution or institutional entry. At the least this suggests the incorrect combination of parameters were assessed given real world performance.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#203

Post by knzhou »

fairenough42 wrote: post #181
opportune wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this would do is benefit the already-privileged and create affinity bias. Basically just affirmative action for white people from middle class and above homes.

Why do you feel the need to name white people specifically?

Because the Senate is over 90% white, and most of the rest are at least half-white.

To people in this country, that's what leadership looks like, so if you grade based on leadership, that's what you're going to get. Not playing identity politics here, just stating a fact.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#204

Post by beepboopbeep »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

I did well on the SATs because there is a method to taking the tests that is agnostic of the underlying knowledge. I was only able to learn that because I could afford the classes. The SAT is a silly game.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#205

Post by quartzite »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

This is exactly correct.

Those who fight for fair admissions on the basis of intellectual ability and academic potential should hold up the SAT and standardized testing as a cornerstone of the admissions process.

Standardized testing significantly levels the playing field for students across income brackets. Returns on study investment quickly diminish, and reaching a plateau on returns doesn't require much investment at all (internet connection and the purchase of a few large study manuals).

At my high school in sophomore year I remember speaking with a wealthy friend whose father had signed him up for flying lessons so he could "stand out in college admissions". There are many, many cases like this.

Admissions should disregard such superficial peacocking and focus on metrics like the SAT that disentangle intellectual and academic potential from wealth.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#206

Post by filoleg »

systemvoltage wrote: post #89
psutor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Won't each college having to have their own test lead to many/most colleges, especially smaller ones, finding it easier or more cost effective to purchase their test from a central source, leading to some large College Board-like company making exams and a prep industry for that standard exam?

I think it’s pretty insane that a single company is a gatekeeper to elite institutions. I’m honestly not sure of the solution, but the problem is pretty evident. College Prep could raise exam fees by 200% tomorrow and you have no law, no oversight from the government or anything preventing them from doing so. Absolute monopoly. They’re no different than professors in bed with book publishers, mandating a particular b…

>I think it’s pretty insane that a single company is a gatekeeper to elite institutions.

Not just elite institutions, I would say 99% of accredited institutions in the US. You would be hard pressed to find an accredited college program in the US that doesn't require either SAT or ACT (talking about the general test, not the subject ones).

P.S. That 99% estimation is obviously made up, but I am yet to find a college that doesn't require an ACT or SAT score, and I applied to many different kinds of colleges in early 2010s (out of state, in-state, public, private, etc.), with almost none of them being MIT-tier elite.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#207

Post by solinent »

knzhou wrote: post #137
dawg- wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call a "smooth-talker" is what someone else would call an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way and who is comfortable making connections with others. Perhaps if this was the standard college admissions used, public schools would have more incentive to educate students as functional humans rather than test-taking drones.

> an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way Yes, that's me. > and who is comfortable making connections with others And that will never be me. Leadership is inherently nepotistic. You simply aren't permitted to lead if you have the wrong class background or the wrong ethnicity. (There's a reason all Senators look exactly the same.) You're literall…

Language is a social creature, you can't have language without society and social interactions, if you're not able to communicate with spoken word you simply can't work as effectively with others. Especially if you can't make connections with others.

In fact, most of history the etymology of words wasn't a huge topic because everyone would pronounce the words in their language similarly and thus language wouldn't evolve nearly as rapidly--the phoneme is as important as the lexeme when it comes to language.

The insert bridge here wasn't built in a day, with one person.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#209

Post by DevX101 »

Dalrymple wrote: post #13

This is indeed a strange decision for MIT. The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. While there are reports of people raising their scores artificially on the non-subject tests by hundreds of points through these short-term methods, the subjects tests…

I'm assuming most everyone taking the SAT subject test is also taking AP tests. AP tests were significantly more rigorous than SAT subject tests and would have provided more useful information to admissions. It took more prep to get a 5 on an AP Chemistry test vs a top score on the SAT subject test.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#210

Post by quartzite »

ivalm wrote: post #159
mgkimsal wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years ago, the ACT test changed enough that it was no longer a valid test to use as entry for Mensa. Prior to 1990, an ACT test could be used as evidence for Mensa admission. So... the ACT wasn't always 'a joke', but doesn't have the same impact that it had decades ago.

A lot of people would argue that Mensa itself is a joke...

That's irrelevant, what matters is that a high IQ society has a vested interest in measuring IQ as a proxy for general intelligence and standardized testing results should reliably correlate to IQ and general intelligence.
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