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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#121

Post by adrianmonk »

systemvoltage wrote: post #71
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

College Prep is a giant business that needs to be dismantled. They have a monopoly in this area. IMO each college should be doing their own objective test. Definitely agree about subjective tests - smooth talkers will get ahead. But that's already the case in getting a job after they graduate - interviewing process is already broken.

> monopoly

Aside from the fact that this is all off-topic since MIT's announcement is about the SAT subject tests, not the SAT itself, it is not a true monopoly anyway.

MIT's web site says they accept either the SAT or the ACT. ("We require the SAT or the ACT.") The SAT is from College Board, and the ACT is from ACT, Inc., which are two different organizations. Both tests are in wide use, so if anything it is a duopoly.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#122

Post by llcoolv »

fallingknife wrote: post #107
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

But that's entirely the point. The people bitching about how the SAT isn't fair aren't smart poor people who are being beaten out by upper middle class losers, but rather upper middle class losers being beaten out by smart poor people. They tell themselves that the test isn't fair, but a part of them knows that they could never get into the 1500's even with all the prep in the world, so they try to get the admissions…

On top of that exam dumps are much less efficient when it comes to SAT IIs, where questions are much more diverse an subject knowledge is essential. SAT I is the one that is easy to game.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#123

Post by LanceH »

Spooky23 wrote: post #112
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

SAT prep is bullshit that lets rich kids test prep their way up.

SAT prep is largely a scam.

Have kids take the test, mark the score. Do absolutely nothing. Kids take test again and naturally do better.

Be a SAT prep company, do the above but insert yourself between tests and take the credit (and the money).

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#124

Post by commandlinefan »

NeverFade wrote: post #65
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

Agree completely. SAT isn't perfect or perfectly objective. No test is. As long as a test controls admission to a highly desirable school, there will be exorbitantly expensive courses for it. However, it is a far more objective test than the rest of the admission packet, and it's being dropped with no alternative. This will make admissions less fair, precisely because SAT is still a test that you can ace with discipl…

> SAT isn't perfect or perfectly objective

But it is the closest thing anybody's ever come up with.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#125

Post by triceratops »

NeverFade wrote: post #81
systemvoltage wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

College Prep is a giant business that needs to be dismantled. They have a monopoly in this area. IMO each college should be doing their own objective test. Definitely agree about subjective tests - smooth talkers will get ahead. But that's already the case in getting a job after they graduate - interviewing process is already broken.

And how exactly will you "dismantle it"? People want to pay thousands of dollars to try to gain access to elite institutions. No matter what test you'll come up with, someone will offer an expensive prep course for it, because they will have willing customers.

Mandate that colleges accept scores from at least 3 different standardized tests, administered by different companies, and that the scores must be easily comparable. That may help break ETS's stranglehold over the market and test fees or test prep material might become reasonable.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#126

Post by thedance »

yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

What really increases your score is having a good night's sleep and a healthy breakfast before school every day of your life prior to taking the test. The test doesn't really measure aptitude because it can't control for those inputs.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#127

Post by RandallBrown »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #108
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

How is this comment upvoted? MIT has not removed the requirement to take SAT tests. > We will continue to require the SAT or the ACT, because our research has shown these tests, in combination with a student’s high school grades and coursework, are predictive of success in our challenging curriculum. This is typical of a knee-jerk reaction without even understanding their policy. Let alone reading the actual post. It…

Probably because many (most?) people don't take or know about the subject tests.

I thought I had never heard of them, but after looking at wikipedia, it looks like they were called the SAT II when I was in high school. I remember that existing, but never knew why you would take them and never knew anybody that did.

It's not a stretch to imagine people being confused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAT_Subject_Tests

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#128

Post by commandlinefan »

saithound wrote: post #55
yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

The SAT is not fair. By taking an expensive prep course, you can potentially increase your SAT score by 100 (although that's quite extreme, the average improvement attributed to SAT prep is closer to 20 points). That's a significant, but not earth-shattering improvement: it moves you from the 75th percentile to the 84th, or from the 97th percentile to the 99th. Now let's compare that to other criteria used in the col…

> it's the fairest admissions criterion

I have yet to see an "abolish standardized tests" type suggest a workable alternative (or even an unworkable one).

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#129

Post by triceratops »

0x8BADF00D wrote: post #95
systemvoltage wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It needs to be dismantled due to monopoly. I’m not sure how. Those are orthogonal.

What you’re getting at is the government creates these types of monopolies due to massive regulations and licensing. The issue is not with the college prep companies. It’s with government getting involved in education, making it way more expensive than it should be. The free market will drive prices down, especially in the education market.

What does the government getting involved in education have anything to do with the monopoly power of ETS? MIT is private, ETS's owner is a company. The problem is that MIT accepts only SAT scores - they should be forced to accept other standardized test scores too. That would create an actual market for standardized testing, along with competition and lower prices.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#130

Post by newen »

BurningFrog wrote: post #103
dawg- wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you call a "smooth-talker" is what someone else would call an articulate, socially well-adjusted person who can communicate their values and opinions in an intelligent way and who is comfortable making connections with others. Perhaps if this was the standard college admissions used, public schools would have more incentive to educate students as functional humans rather than test-taking drones.

Well, maybe. But being the kind of articulate person college people appreciate is also a strong cultural marker that you come from the "college tribe".

Exactly. People don't talk about class enough in this topic. The kind of people that college interviewers appreciate (in terms of behavior) will almost always be upper middle class people and those who know enough to behave like upper middle class people.
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