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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#111

Post by closeparen »

asdfman123 wrote: post #59
closeparen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The SAT is designed to be an intelligence test, not a course final, and it's possible that the large team of education and psychometrics people who've been working on it for decades know what they're doing. Armchair speculation: there are probably some really bright kids out there with poor test-taking skills, and prep likely has a dramatic effect on scores for them , but most students are not that. Did you actually…

> it's possible that the large team of education and psychometrics people who've been working on it for decades know what they're doing Don't assume that society is optimizing for what's socially optimal. Back when it was on a 1600 point scale, I got a 1300 on the first practice test for my SAT course. When I took the test for real, I got a 1570.

I wouldn't assume it, but it's one of the plausible explanations for the test appearing to meet its design goals.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#112

Post by Spooky23 »

knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

SAT prep is bullshit that lets rich kids test prep their way up.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#113

Post by devonkim »

yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

I realized how much of a scam standardized testing was when I used to do the PSATs and increased my score mostly by using a different strategy rather than getting smarter or anything. The SAT prep class my high school offered for like $40 was a complete joke because they were designed for public school students where you get around 1250 and it's pretty good for state school admissions. Until I learned to treat the test as a game and understand its scoring I went from 1330 to 1520 simply by _not_ answering anything I wasn't fully confident with my answer - this is literally the opposite strategy I was instructed to do where they encouraged people to guess. To get to the higher end, you are best off never getting even a partial deduction for getting something wrong. When I got my best score, I only got 3 questions wrong but far more unanswered.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#114

Post by lopmotr »

quotemstr wrote: post #69
knzhou wrote: post #57

Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Yes, some misguided parents waste thousands of dollars on SAT courses. But students can also prep using the $20 officia…

> Anybody cheering the exclusion of some test or other, because it was a pain to study for in high school, is simply not noticing the frog-boiling secondary effects going on. Every bit of emphasis taken out of objective results mean more advantage for smooth talking, photogenic, well-connected people. Absolutely right. Standardized testing become popular in the first place as an egalitarian measure, a way to combat i…

There's something that doesn't quite make sense to me about this worry of wealthy people passing on their privileges to their children. Their children are different individuals who were effectively randomly chosen to be born into that situation. Why should it be some other child who was randomly chosen some other way instead? No matter who gets into Harvard, it's still the same number of people who somehow ended up with that privilege.

Is it simple jealousy of rich people? Or is it a worry that their kids aren't really the most capable so society won't function so well when they're eventually in charge? I'd say their kids probably are the most capable because elite universities get their funding and fame from successful graduates so they're incentivized to choose the people with greatest chance of success. Of a well-connected rich kid and a poorly-connected poor kid with the same SAT scores, the rich kid has better chance of future career success.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#115

Post by alexhutcheson »

dbcurtis wrote: post #45

"And last, but certainly not least: I know we are making this announcement during the COVID-19 pandemic. We had already been planning to make this change, and decided to announce as soon as possible in part because we wanted to make sure no one was spending more time or energy studying for tests they wouldn’t have to take for us, especially during a public health emergency. " Riiiiiiiight. 'Cuz nobody that applies to…

SAT Subject Tests are either optional or not considered at most schools. I personally took a few SAT Subject Tests that were only required for a single school I was applying to.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#116

Post by colinmhayes »

indigochill wrote: post #42
yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

The main thing that frustrated me about the SAT, at least when I took it, was that it essentially boiled down to an IQ test, not a true "scholastic aptitude" test. I did barely any prep (aside from, I think, a flip calendar with questions), but I scored 1510 out of 1600 at the time which qualified me for a prestigious program in my university. Then I narrowly avoided flunking out because I'd never actually learned to…

Similar story to you except I graduated with a 3.4 from a top 10 university without learning to study or manage my time. I guess the test was right?

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#117

Post by gwbas1c »

thecleaner wrote: post #51

So they will consider what ? Recommendation letters ? Maybe they dont realise that people from disadvantaged groups dont really have the luxury to volunteer at one of those fancy NGOs. Standardized tests are actually except for the super expensive textbooks in the US. If these books for basic education could somehow be made free but oh wait - socialism.

> So they will consider what?

They explain it very clearly: The SAT or ACT, and high school grades.

They are just skipping the subject tests, because they don't think they are useful.

The subject tests are the optional tests that students can take in addition to the normal SAT.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#118

Post by pge »

MiroF wrote: post #75
NeverFade wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree completely. SAT isn't perfect or perfectly objective. No test is. As long as a test controls admission to a highly desirable school, there will be exorbitantly expensive courses for it. However, it is a far more objective test than the rest of the admission packet, and it's being dropped with no alternative. This will make admissions less fair, precisely because SAT is still a test that you can ace with discipl…

Agreed. In my opinion, the best way to make admissions more fair is not to eliminate the SAT but to eliminate score choice.

And eliminate legacy preference and ability for sports coaches to influence admissions.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#119

Post by thaumasiotes »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #109
thaumasiotes wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, no one disputes that memorizing an answer key can give you a higher score. But by the same token, no one believes that the influence of cheating is of interest when studying potential gains from "test prep".

That isn’t just it though: they have access to old tests, they have access to test takers who memorize questions, given the importance and popularity of any test, these options will arise and people with means will have access to them. There is no avoiding Goodhart’s law.

You can make a case for a much weaker form of Goodhart's Law, that with the SAT as a well-known target, SAT scores are less informative than they would be otherwise.

But "there is no avoiding Goodhart’s law" is obviously wrong if you interpret Goodhart's Law as it's actually phrased; the SAT is doing a fine job of avoiding it today. The SAT hasn't ceased to be a good measure. It's still very informative.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#120

Post by aliston »

Spivak wrote: post #35
aliston wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real scandal that I can't believe hasn't gotten more attention is that wealthy families are hiring psychologists to claim their child has a learning disability. They can then get more time to take the test and due to a policy change a few years ago, this information is hidden from the schools when students report their scores.

Look, faking a disability is deplorable but this stance is bonkers. I wish my parents had the money when I was growing up to get me checked and diagnose my ADHD. And of course you wouldn't want to report to the college if a person has a disability, are you trying to scarlet letter everyone who needs a little more time to read from dyslexia?

Admissions committees at top universities are some of the most bleeding heart do-Goode types on the planet. There is no way disclosing a learning disability would get you Scarlett lettered. If anything, it would probably help your application.
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