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MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#41

Post by naniwaduni »

nicoburns wrote: post #17
duckMuppet wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can study the SAT prep books for free at a bookstore a few hours at a time daily. If your offended by that, what about professors or HS teachers who teach certain sections of the textbook because it's going to be on the exam. One can self-study the SAT prep book or self-study their biology book and in both cases can potentially be more knowledgeable than those who attended a formal university class or prep wor…

> If your offended by that, what about professors or HS teachers who teach certain sections of the textbook because it's going to be on the exam. Yes, this another big problem caused by (too much emphasis on) standardised testing. I learnt the most in classes that didn't do this. But people do better on tests when they do do this. Standardised tests are destroying our education system.

Goodhart's law in action!

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#42

Post by indigochill »

yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

The main thing that frustrated me about the SAT, at least when I took it, was that it essentially boiled down to an IQ test, not a true "scholastic aptitude" test. I did barely any prep (aside from, I think, a flip calendar with questions), but I scored 1510 out of 1600 at the time which qualified me for a prestigious program in my university.

Then I narrowly avoided flunking out because I'd never actually learned to study or manage my time properly in high school because I'd never needed to until college. Study skills and time management seem like pretty important factors in a true measure of scholastic aptitude.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#43

Post by SkyBelow »

hackinthebochs wrote: post #30
yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

I'm an underrepresented minority and I increased my SAT score by 200-300 from the PSAT to SAT, depending on how you want to measure the change. This was just by doing self-study with off the shelf test prep material. The classes aren't what increases your score, its the consistent structured study and ones innate potential. For some people, no amount of study is going to get them into the 90+th percentile. While othe…

>But this is exactly what SAT is intended to measure, scholastic potential.

But if you define the variable like this, you end up opening a can of worms.

Do rich kids have more scholastic potential because they have better access to resources? Or should scholastic potential be the measurement of how a child performs assuming they had the same access to resources? Should children who belong to a racial/ethnic group that have social stereotypes of having more scholastic potential be defined as having more scholastic potential because of the effect of stereotypes and labels, or should the measure of scholastic potential be of the underlying potential if the effects of stereotypes and labels were equal?

Normally measurements of potential aim to be to measure the factors least impacted by other factors, because if we account for those factors we are measuring actual instead of potential.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#44

Post by hangonhn »

yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

These advantages are more subtle than even that.

I was shamed by some older fellow alums when I told people that my parents had hired someone to go over my application and essays. Their stance was that my parents gave me an unfair advantage (note, both of my parents are immigrants who did not even finish high school). My retort to them was point out that most of them didn't exactly grow up in the crime ridden rural parts of the world (quite the opposite in fact). Their parents paid a higher tax rate to support the world class public education they got, which they just assumed is the norm. That shut them up rather quickly.

SAT prep classes or not, coming from a more advantageous social-economic background grants you so many benefits in many ways. My parents wouldn't have to hire someone to review my applications if my school had a good college counselor (50% of my classmates do not go on to college).

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#45

Post by dbcurtis »

"And last, but certainly not least: I know we are making this announcement during the COVID-19 pandemic. We had already been planning to make this change, and decided to announce as soon as possible in part because we wanted to make sure no one was spending more time or energy studying for tests they wouldn’t have to take for us, especially during a public health emergency. "

Riiiiiiiight. 'Cuz nobody that applies to MIT ever applies to a back-up school. You know, just in case they don't get accepted. I've heard that can happen.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#46

Post by posterboy »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #19
Dalrymple wrote: post #13

This is indeed a strange decision for MIT. The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. While there are reports of people raising their scores artificially on the non-subject tests by hundreds of points through these short-term methods, the subjects tests…

> The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. Who cares what the conventional wisdom says? The psychometric results are that SAT I scores and SAT II scores predict performance about equally well in isolation and don't have more predictive value in combin…

There is another implication as a consequence of the statement "the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests." That is, I first read thag the students don't suffer under these conditions. It is a valuable trait no doubt, to be able to cram swaths of loosely associated facts. I'd argue that it's a vital trade for study, but perhaps it is less severe than only twenty years ago, because very powerful memory aids have become ubiquitious.

> predict performance about equally well

having no tires or no engine predicts performance of a car--or rather the lack thereof--equally well. Yet grip and horsepower are independent variables. I think that means SAT scores don't predict success too well at all beyond a certain threshold.

Having the right motivation (haha, a pun) for a certain disciplin might make a huge difference. So you can test e.g. vocabulary learning in general, or top9cal knowledge, which requires precise choices of vocabulary nonetheless, but one not found in a general dictionary. It's more like knowing which dictionaries exist, and what texts are referenced therein.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#47

Post by losvedir »

yardie wrote: post #8

I used to think the SATs were fair. Until I found out how much money was being spent on SAT prep. And those expensive prep courses had the potential to increase scores over 100 points. I took the recommended SAT prep course through my high school. It was 2 weekends of going over material that might be on the exam and a workbook recommended by The College Board. Imagine my surprise going to university and meeting stud…

100 points isn't that much. The average score is 1000-1100. The elite universities expect 1500. Tutoring, even if it gave you 100 points, isn't going to cross that gap.

I'd say it's still relatively fair. Fairer than essentially any other admissions criterion: grades aren't comparable across schools, extra-curriculars are much more about money spent, etc.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#48

Post by naniwaduni »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #19
Dalrymple wrote: post #13

This is indeed a strange decision for MIT. The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. While there are reports of people raising their scores artificially on the non-subject tests by hundreds of points through these short-term methods, the subjects tests…

> The conventional wisdom has long been that the SAT subject tests are MORE predictive of future success at MIT, because the influence of test prep, cramming, test coaches, etc. is minimal for the subject tests. Who cares what the conventional wisdom says? The psychometric results are that SAT I scores and SAT II scores predict performance about equally well in isolation and don't have more predictive value in combin…

> Who cares what the conventional wisdom says? The psychometric results are that SAT I scores and SAT II scores predict performance about equally well in isolation and don't have more predictive value in combination than they do in isolation. In other words, they measure exactly the same thing.

This is point where you take a step back and conclude that if this is your measured result, you may have been measuring nothing at all.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#49

Post by Spivak »

kaibee wrote: post #37
Spivak wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like such a weird stance since pretty much all formal education isn't free. Even without SAT prep rich families can still afford better schools, private tutors, set up apprenticeships. It's a weird world where people are mad that those with means are using them to educate themselves and their children. As an adult I choose to pay for lots of different forms of education that gives me "advantage" -- bleh --…

I think the difference is that, better schools and private tutors, are at least in theory, teaching useful skills and ultimately creating a better person at the end. Being good at the SATs doesn't have the same excuse, so its much more obvious when you're basically just paying to get a better score.

Look, I don't disagree with you -- other than the score SAT prep is fantastically bad education investment. But I think this is a problem with the testing more than some larger class issue. We've rewarded learning a bunch of useless facts and test taking strategies. You could probably switch out the SAT for an entire test of movie trivia and you'd probably get the same distribution of performance since ACT/SAT just reward the people who study for it the most. You can't accidentally prepare for these tests by other schooling that's not geared for it.

Re: MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions decisions

#50

Post by basementcat »

Makes sense; doesn't everybody pretty much get perfect scores on these? (at least everyone who is a serious applicant to an institution like MIT) If everyone gets the same (perfect) score then the test doesn't really help the admissions committee select for the best applicants. Tests like AMC 12 may be more useful for this type of purpose.
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