Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 584 posts

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#181

Post by kevingadd »

cutenewt wrote: post #89

I hope companies step up and create surgical masks. It's such a basic item, but we don't have enough. Forget about guns, it's like asking troops to fight without shoes.

Unfortunately, in the past when local companies did that they were punished because the demand evaporated and the government wasn't willing to keep buying and stockpile. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/05/8113874... mentions how one manufacturer kept trying to get the government to help maintain supply, but they didn't. Now all the local manufacturers are scrambling and the US stockpiles are insufficient.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#182

Post by jacquesm »

spectramax wrote: post #174
jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

I think the healthcare system and medical supply chain are two separate things. A universal healthcare system (for E.g. Sweden) still has a normal supply chain. The only difference is the profit motives are not present and the government can effectively pump money in without violating economic principles of supply/demand and pricing.

A commercialized health care system has lots of perverse incentives leading to price increases and profiteering. This sets the weakest fraction of the population up for losing all they've built up in the last 3 months of their life while barely impacting the strong. It also means that those hospitals don't care about overpaying for their supplies and medication (but not their workforce) because they get to pass those costs on to those already weakened people.

FWIW: Gall bladder operation in NL all in: 1500 euros, non-subsidized and paid for out of pocket because I wasn't paying into the local healthcare system when it happened. Same procedure in the USA: $24000!

https://www.lendingpoint.com/blog/gallbladder-surgery-costs-...

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#183

Post by TomMckenny »

jacquesm wrote: post #161
ajross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because no one has stepped up to write a check. Hospitals are businesses, they're not going to do this on their own. GM is a business, they're not donating those ventilators, they're trying to make a sale into a new market. States, most of them, can't do it because their budgets are fixed by their constitutions and they can't take a loan or write a bond without a referendum. There's basically one entity in thi…

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

There are a couple possible re-thinkings. The disturbing one is where it is noticed that we are essentially sacrificing a bit of the economy to reduce fatalities. So next time it is decided that company valuations are worth the extra deaths[1]

I submit that rethinking needs to be started early rather than late so the discussion isn't dominated by euphemisms for some very dark path.

[1] As we know, social isolation is to spread out the pace of acute cases so as not to overwhelm hospitals. But it obviously slows the economy considerably. The alternative would be to not to isolate, keeping businesses wide open and allow the medical system to be overwhelmed with its accompanying higher mortality rate.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#184

Post by jcims »

wayne_skylar wrote: post #155
mgerdts wrote: post #96

Manufacture of medical devices has specific regulation around Good Manufacturing Processes [1] (GMP, one of many GxPs). This requires a Quality Management System [2] (QMS) and very specific training for everyone involved. Pretty much any manufacturer that is not already manufacturing in accordance with 21 CFR Part 820 [3] and related regulations will have a ton of work to establish a suitable QMS. I'd like to think t…

Wonderful. I'd rather have an unregulated ventilator and maybe live than no ventilator and die for sure.

Unfortunately the ventilator alone is insufficient. You also need a medical team to administer it, and they may choose not to expose themselves to the liability of using a ventilator of unknown provenance.

I’m not a doctor but in this setting it seems that letting you die of a disease is much more palatable than killing you in an attempt to treat it.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#185

Post by Ericson2314 »

jjeaff wrote: post #108
mgerdts wrote: post #96

Manufacture of medical devices has specific regulation around Good Manufacturing Processes [1] (GMP, one of many GxPs). This requires a Quality Management System [2] (QMS) and very specific training for everyone involved. Pretty much any manufacturer that is not already manufacturing in accordance with 21 CFR Part 820 [3] and related regulations will have a ton of work to establish a suitable QMS. I'd like to think t…

I think you are a bit confused about the position the country is in right now. Regulations and regulators can and will be damned in an emergency. Of course, all reasonable precautions should be taken when producing medical equipment. But if someone needs a ventilator, they are going to die without it. It doesn't matter that there is a small chance that complications arise or some flaw in the ventilator causes it not…

There is a really simple to solution to this: the government limits prices and mandates based on how badly the regulation is skirted. Basically limit profit so it matches the dubious use-value. (Neither utility nor profit is actually linear wrt units produce, but just smart about that and know your adversary.)

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#186

Post by jacquesm »

TomMckenny wrote: post #183
jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

There are a couple possible re-thinkings. The disturbing one is where it is noticed that we are essentially sacrificing a bit of the economy to reduce fatalities. So next time it is decided that company valuations are worth the extra deaths[1] I submit that rethinking needs to be started early rather than late so the discussion isn't dominated by euphemisms for some very dark path. [1] As we know, social isolation is…

America has been on the dark path where lives are equated to money for a long time now. It will take something quite dramatic to shock the system to the point where people are willing to re-think it from the ground up. Maybe this is that shock. If not now, then probably never.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#187

Post by nraynaud »

jjeaff wrote: post #108
mgerdts wrote: post #96

Manufacture of medical devices has specific regulation around Good Manufacturing Processes [1] (GMP, one of many GxPs). This requires a Quality Management System [2] (QMS) and very specific training for everyone involved. Pretty much any manufacturer that is not already manufacturing in accordance with 21 CFR Part 820 [3] and related regulations will have a ton of work to establish a suitable QMS. I'd like to think t…

I think you are a bit confused about the position the country is in right now. Regulations and regulators can and will be damned in an emergency. Of course, all reasonable precautions should be taken when producing medical equipment. But if someone needs a ventilator, they are going to die without it. It doesn't matter that there is a small chance that complications arise or some flaw in the ventilator causes it not…

Maybe GM could be renting space and manpower to a ventilator manufacturer?

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#189

Post by elchief »

babesh wrote: post #166
chapium wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals are hamstrung by their bureaucracies and financial policies. The best thing that can be done is an independent assessment of need and start "airdropping" supplies if a shortage is apparent.

Did no one bother to actually read the article? It says that there can potentially be a shortage but that there isn't currently. The fed has 13000 and the military an extra 2000. It currently seems more hamstrung by bureaucracy or lack of information. Hospitals have to request their state governments which have to then request them from the federal government. Only one state has requested them so far. "“We have recei…

You're gonna need 20 million of them

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#190

Post by riffraff »

TomMckenny wrote: post #183
jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

There are a couple possible re-thinkings. The disturbing one is where it is noticed that we are essentially sacrificing a bit of the economy to reduce fatalities. So next time it is decided that company valuations are worth the extra deaths[1] I submit that rethinking needs to be started early rather than late so the discussion isn't dominated by euphemisms for some very dark path. [1] As we know, social isolation is…

to be fair, you can adopt europe/wuhan-style total lockdown but you could also adopt developed-asia-style mass tracing.

The latter seems to have been way more effective in containing the epidemic and less impactful on the economy.

So, there was third option which saves both people and economy, but it's probably politically unfeasible.

Post reply on HN