GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization • Hacker News Board

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#171

Post by ajross » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:05 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #161

ajross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because no one has stepped up to write a check. Hospitals are businesses, they're not going to do this on their own. GM is a business, they're not donating those ventilators, they're trying to make a sale into a new market. States, most of them, can't do it because their budgets are fixed by their constitutions and they can't take a loan or write a bond without a referendum. There's basically one entity in thi…

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

To be clear: I'm certainly not opposed the idea of air-dropping GM-manufactured ventilators to needy hospitals (though I'll admit I don't see how it's ever going to work in time and genuinely think this sounds like marketing on GMs part more than a serious idea).

I'm just saying that the person that needs to get off their ass and move on these ideas isn't Mary Barra but Donald Trump (and McConnell and Pelosi of course).

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#172

Post by salemh » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:07 AM UTC

thereare5lights wrote: post #67

> There are going to be a lot of comments about how we messed up, wasted time, etc., but they miss the point. That, ironically, misses the point of the existing comments about how we wasted time. By wasting time, lots of people are going to die that didn't need to die. None of that has to do with mobilization itself or the issues that we run into during mobilization, it has to do with when we decided to mobilize.

There were conflicting issues that seem to be coming out now. https://www.redstate.com/nick-arama/2020/03/18/who-claimed-i...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/chinese-scientists-destro...

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#173

Post by kevingadd » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:08 AM UTC

wayne_skylar wrote: post #155

mgerdts wrote: post #96

Manufacture of medical devices has specific regulation around Good Manufacturing Processes [1] (GMP, one of many GxPs). This requires a Quality Management System [2] (QMS) and very specific training for everyone involved. Pretty much any manufacturer that is not already manufacturing in accordance with 21 CFR Part 820 [3] and related regulations will have a ton of work to establish a suitable QMS. I'd like to think t…

Wonderful. I'd rather have an unregulated ventilator and maybe live than no ventilator and die for sure.

You're overlooking additional options like "The patient would have survived without a ventilator, but one was used to improve their condition and it turned out it was a defective GM ventilator because who needs regulations"

Also "the ventilator was fine but 12 months later it's still in service - who's going to throw out a working ventilator? - and now it's killing people because who needs regulations"

You can't just throw out all the regulations. "Any treatment" is not better than No Treatment. You have to identify which regulations are appropriate to discard in the situation - many, sure, but not all. You wouldn't want someone 3D printing your ventilator with materials that will off-gas toxic fumes and kill you when you would have survived (barely) without the ventilator...

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#174

Post by spectramax » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:10 AM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #161

ajross wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, because no one has stepped up to write a check. Hospitals are businesses, they're not going to do this on their own. GM is a business, they're not donating those ventilators, they're trying to make a sale into a new market. States, most of them, can't do it because their budgets are fixed by their constitutions and they can't take a loan or write a bond without a referendum. There's basically one entity in thi…

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

I think the healthcare system and medical supply chain are two separate things. A universal healthcare system (for E.g. Sweden) still has a normal supply chain. The only difference is the profit motives are not present and the government can effectively pump money in without violating economic principles of supply/demand and pricing.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#175

Post by ethbro » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:12 AM UTC

kevingadd wrote: post #169

yellow_lead wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't states have emergency budgets that become available during state of emergency?

Yes and no, some states are constantly on the border of being insolvent. California has a big 'rainy day fund' but this recession is projected to eat into a significant chunk of it. The way hospitals are funded and administered may make it tricky for a state to buy a bunch of ventilators with state funds and then donate them to a hospital... if you "lend" them then after the crisis the state owns a bunch of used vent…

So mothball them the same way the military does equipment. We don't have a shortage of land in this country.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#176

Post by kevingadd » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:12 AM UTC

manigandham wrote: post #83

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is not whether or not Musk owes it to anyone. But that some people claim to be making the world a better place, and others batten down and actually do make the world a better place. And usually the latter is a lot less glamorous than the former.

Let's be fair, Elon has had plenty of accomplishments in "making the world a better place". I don't see the point of all this concentrated attention on one person as if he's the savior to every problem.

Cite some examples?

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#177

Post by JCharante » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:12 AM UTC

worthless-trash wrote: post #160

MichaelApproved wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you decided to downvote, please at least explain why. Because I don't believe lefts conquered the HN. I downvoted because you assumed it was the “lefts” who were downvoting you.

Tbh, I only ever see up arrows beside a comment, Today I learned downvoting is possible. What are the conditions on being able to downvote ?

500 >= karma I think

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#178

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:13 AM UTC

ajross wrote: post #171

jacquesm wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoever thought that running your healthcare system in a commercial fashion was the right idea in the first place? A lot of fundamental decisions are going to be re-thought in the aftermath of this virus' impact, but for now we can ignore all that and focus on what matters: eradicating the thing. And if GM making ventilators on a war footing is what it takes I'm all for it, let's divert some of those funds to them an…

To be clear: I'm certainly not opposed the idea of air-dropping GM-manufactured ventilators to needy hospitals (though I'll admit I don't see how it's ever going to work in time and genuinely think this sounds like marketing on GMs part more than a serious idea). I'm just saying that the person that needs to get off their ass and move on these ideas isn't Mary Barra but Donald Trump (and McConnell and Pelosi of cours…

You need to start thinking of this as a logistics problem, not a tech problem. Ventilators is a solved problem. What is needed is a stream of parts and manufacturing capability. I'm not sure if car manufacturers are the right partners but they do have a lot of people that know how to put stuff together. They can put an assembly line for ventilators together; get a stream of parts going and start manufacturing long before we reach the peak of this epidemic. Their workers are not going to be doing anything else so let's let them have their shot. Meanwhile, other companies could start on parts manufacturing. Some design should be chosen; standardized and then we need to start moving. Everywhere. Ditto portable ICU units, negative pressure environments and training for people to help others during this epidemic. If not many more more lives will be lost.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#179

Post by adrr » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:14 AM UTC

mgerdts wrote: post #96

Manufacture of medical devices has specific regulation around Good Manufacturing Processes [1] (GMP, one of many GxPs). This requires a Quality Management System [2] (QMS) and very specific training for everyone involved. Pretty much any manufacturer that is not already manufacturing in accordance with 21 CFR Part 820 [3] and related regulations will have a ton of work to establish a suitable QMS. I'd like to think t…

No one cares about any of this stuff. Rules need to be tossed aside to minimize loss of life. All FDA rules surrounding drugs need to be suspended for COVID19 patients. We need to start doing what china did and start using non approved anti-virals to save people's lives.

We need to start vaccinating at risk populations(75 or older) with the trial vaccine if it is shown to be effective in the upcoming weeks. We cant wait a year.

Re: GM’s CEO Offers to Make Ventilators in WWII-Style Mobilization

#180

Post by smacktoward » Thu, Mar 19, 2020, 5:15 AM UTC

babesh wrote: post #166

chapium wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hospitals are hamstrung by their bureaucracies and financial policies. The best thing that can be done is an independent assessment of need and start "airdropping" supplies if a shortage is apparent.

Did no one bother to actually read the article? It says that there can potentially be a shortage but that there isn't currently. The fed has 13000 and the military an extra 2000. It currently seems more hamstrung by bureaucracy or lack of information. Hospitals have to request their state governments which have to then request them from the federal government. Only one state has requested them so far. "“We have recei…

The problem is that, if you wait to act until the shortage is actually upon you, you’ll act too late. These things take time to make and distribute. You have to act before the tidal wave hits if you want to have them in place when it does.