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Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

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Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#21

Post by codingslave »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #19
codingslave wrote: post #12

Being good at coding can be predicted by IQ. Being good at white boarding puzzles require IQ. -----> White board puzzles filter for good coders. Its not perfect, but its the best way to scale it. Sorry everyone, this isn't going away

> Its not perfect, but its the best way to scale it. IQ tests scale a lot better than one-to-one whiteboard interviews do. They are specifically designed for that purpose. How is an expensive, labor-intensive, never-validated approximation of an IQ test "better scaled" than a cheap, easy-to-administer, thoroughly validated IQ test?

Right, but IQ tests are illegal.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#22

Post by hinkley »

Areading314 wrote: post #3

I don't see the problem with whiteboard as long as its emphasized that you are looking for an algorithmic solution, not a perfectly running code snippet in a specific language. Whiteboard is great for sketching out ideas and solving problems collaboratively, which is a good indicator of team fit.

Because there’s a lot of different ways to break down a problem, and some of the best ones do not work well on a physical surface, where the cost of rearranging things is often higher than writing it over.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#23

Post by Aeolun »

grecy wrote: post #20
Areading314 wrote: post #3

I don't see the problem with whiteboard as long as its emphasized that you are looking for an algorithmic solution, not a perfectly running code snippet in a specific language. Whiteboard is great for sketching out ideas and solving problems collaboratively, which is a good indicator of team fit.

Exactly right. I think a lot of people stress that a whiteboard exercise is not a great way to ascertain coding skill.... and they're right. The part they're missing is the whiteboard exercise isn't intended to only test coding skill. It's about how well you ask questions, how well you listen to instructions, how well you work with others and interpret the specs and information you're given. Then it's about how well…

The thing is, I can do all of those things very well when I’m not standing in front of a whiteboard.

When someone asks me to do then on a whiteboard in an interview setting they might as well dismiss me immediately.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#24

Post by thaumasiotes »

codingslave wrote: post #21
thaumasiotes wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its not perfect, but its the best way to scale it. IQ tests scale a lot better than one-to-one whiteboard interviews do. They are specifically designed for that purpose. How is an expensive, labor-intensive, never-validated approximation of an IQ test "better scaled" than a cheap, easy-to-administer, thoroughly validated IQ test?

Right, but IQ tests are illegal.

There are legal barriers, but no, they're not illegal. GE uses one. The NFL uses one. McKinsey uses one.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#25

Post by inertiatic »

Areading314 wrote: post #3

I don't see the problem with whiteboard as long as its emphasized that you are looking for an algorithmic solution, not a perfectly running code snippet in a specific language. Whiteboard is great for sketching out ideas and solving problems collaboratively, which is a good indicator of team fit.

I don't mind explaining algorithms on a whiteboard.

I do mind having to recall arbitrary algorithms on the spot.

Even then, you can avoid asking trickier algorithms as an interviewer.

But as soon as you have to write in an actual language it just becomes too painful.

Which is what most interviewers expect.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#26

Post by PopeDotNinja »

Areading314 wrote: post #3

I don't see the problem with whiteboard as long as its emphasized that you are looking for an algorithmic solution, not a perfectly running code snippet in a specific language. Whiteboard is great for sketching out ideas and solving problems collaboratively, which is a good indicator of team fit.

Here's the problem with whiteboard interviewing. You can't see how I think. It's just not possible. I'm trapped in a box with a strange person who is staring at me & asking me really invasive questions. If you wanna know whether or not I know about optimistic locking, just ask me "do to know about optimistic locking well?". If I do, ask me an optimistic locking question of modest difficulty. If I don't, don't spend an hour trying to get me to move in that direction and see if I figure it out. I'm just gonna think you're trying to show off how smart and unprepared you were.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#27

Post by Ididntdothis »

Aeolun wrote: post #23
grecy wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly right. I think a lot of people stress that a whiteboard exercise is not a great way to ascertain coding skill.... and they're right. The part they're missing is the whiteboard exercise isn't intended to only test coding skill. It's about how well you ask questions, how well you listen to instructions, how well you work with others and interpret the specs and information you're given. Then it's about how well…

The thing is, I can do all of those things very well when I’m not standing in front of a whiteboard. When someone asks me to do then on a whiteboard in an interview setting they might as well dismiss me immediately.

When I interview I usually offer a whiteboard or paper and pen. Or they can talk through the problem. I just want to see that somebody is capable of understanding a problem and has a way to work towards a solution. Maybe I should offer a text editor too in the future.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#28

Post by jldugger »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #19
codingslave wrote: post #12

Being good at coding can be predicted by IQ. Being good at white boarding puzzles require IQ. -----> White board puzzles filter for good coders. Its not perfect, but its the best way to scale it. Sorry everyone, this isn't going away

> Its not perfect, but its the best way to scale it. IQ tests scale a lot better than one-to-one whiteboard interviews do. They are specifically designed for that purpose. How is an expensive, labor-intensive, never-validated approximation of an IQ test "better scaled" than a cheap, easy-to-administer, thoroughly validated IQ test?

Standard IQ tests are basically offlimits in the US as they feature a well known, well studied disparate impact.

But I think your correspondent is underselling work sample tests. They are not perfectly correlated with IQ testing, and do in fact measure something beyond IQ; on it's own work sample tests are only slightly worse than IQ testing, and combining IQ testing and work sample testing improves predictions of hiring outcomes vs just IQ testing.

That said, very few workplaces have well calibrated whiteboard interviews, or take home interviews, or pair programming screenings.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#29

Post by dntbnmpls »

Whiteboard exercises are there to show how well you understood topics, how well you can think on your feet and how well you can communicate. Most whiteboard exercises generally deal with pseudocode. Haven't seen a whiteboard that can compile and run the code you write on it to test your code or your coding ability.

Re: Whiteboard exercises are a terrible way to investigate coding ability (2012)

#30

Post by pmiller2 »

grecy wrote: post #20
Areading314 wrote: post #3

I don't see the problem with whiteboard as long as its emphasized that you are looking for an algorithmic solution, not a perfectly running code snippet in a specific language. Whiteboard is great for sketching out ideas and solving problems collaboratively, which is a good indicator of team fit.

Exactly right. I think a lot of people stress that a whiteboard exercise is not a great way to ascertain coding skill.... and they're right. The part they're missing is the whiteboard exercise isn't intended to only test coding skill. It's about how well you ask questions, how well you listen to instructions, how well you work with others and interpret the specs and information you're given. Then it's about how well…

In practice, facing down some 25 year old who’s been at the company for all of 9 months, it is all about “the answer.” In some cases, it’s about 3 answers. Often, it’s actually about their answer — you must do it their way, otherwise you are wrong.

This is not the case 100% of the time, but it is often enough that if you’re interviewing in SF, particularly at startups, you will see it at least every few interviews. It’s ridiculous.

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