Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why N95 masks are hard to make

npr.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

261–270 of 363 posts

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#261

Post by simonh »

coldtea wrote: post #255
nabla9 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not true that US or any other developed country have lost their manufacturing base. The rest of the economy has grown faster than manufacturing. Developed countries have moved into high-tech, high productivity, more capital intensive manufacturing with complex supply chains. If you want to bring back low productivity products into your country, you must accept wage decline, slower growth and lowering quality of…

> Turning the clock back is not a good idea. Might be a more liveable, more resilient, better for the environment, and for quality of life (which is not the same as "more gadgets") idea though...

It's hard to see how lower paid jobs are more liveable or provide better quality of life, or how smaller scale and therefore less efficient manufacturing would be better for the environment. I just don't see how these outcomes are supposed to arise.

More resilient, ok maybe, but surely there are other ways that resilience could be achieved through e.g. rolling stockpiling or maintaining flexible manufacturing capability. We don't necessarily need to be able to make our own masks all the time, but have the capacity to make them if needed. there are a range of new technologies coming along that could provide this flexibility, such as 3d printing and flexible robotic assembly systems. That would come at a cost for sure, but could provide the needed flexibility at a much lower social cost than pushing people back into lower value long term employment.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#262

Post by mlrtime »

_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

This is correct and an answer I give to people on the coasts when they ask why the US govt pays farmers. It is imperative that a country can feed itself.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#263

Post by dsfyu404ed »

olejorgenb wrote: post #253
ckcheng wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockpiling is good as part of the preparation but isn't enough. e.g. "Five months worth of supplies were used by one hospital in six days" [1] How's any country supposed to stockpile enough at that rate? And stockpiles require upkeep and evergreening. Otherwise things like masks eventually expire [2]. Upkeep costs money too. [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... [2] https://nationalpost…

I've seen this a couple of places, but no-one has explained why the masks expire? Also - it should be possible to design simple protocols to rotate the stock properly. Storage costs due to increased space is unavoidable ofc.

Like most non-organic things masks "expire" because the manufacture needs to not be liable after a certain date (after all, the manufacturer can't be realistically held responsible indefinitely) and the institutions buying the masks are unwilling to take on the responsibility of determining the quality of their own stockpile so they just trash them and buy more.

The military actively researches this kind of thing and knows exactly how long past it's expiration date many products are good for. I'm unaware of any other organizations that take on this responsibility.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#265

Post by tomp »

sgift wrote: post #204
tomp wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You saw what happened in the EU. No borders but also no shared decision-making and responsibility. It quickly deteriorated to a situation worse than in the US, with each country doing its own thing (including closing most borders), and very little cooperation and helping each other. Trump might not be making the best decisions, but at least he's making decisions for the US! Noone is even trying to make decisions for…

> Noone is even trying to make decisions for Europe... Of course people are. The EU commission works on it, countries talk to each other. Is there a fully coordinated EU response yet? No. Is there cooperation? Yes.

The EU commission was criticizing Trump for banning flights from EU, before banning them themselves a few days later.

It's a circus.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#266

Post by xienze »

raxxorrax wrote: post #251
tough wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well our female president Von Der Leyen snatched up a 80mill grant for cureVac in order to avoid Trump luring them to move and secure the covid-19 vaccine for US only. Trump 0 Europe 1

Ah, yes, she exists... I think she is just half bad and predictable but I don't think it is the best argument for the condition of the commission. This XY vs Trump shit isn't very convincing and I do believe that it is pretty though for people really caring about politics. The cureVac thing is suspicious as there are conflicting reports.

One such “conflicting report” is CureVac themselves[0]:

> To make it clear again on coronavirus: CureVac has not received from the US government or related entities an offer before, during and since the Task Force meeting in the White House on March 2. CureVac rejects all allegations from press.

Oh sure, the original articles have been updated, but still the myth remains. Funny how that works.

0: https://mobile.twitter.com/CureVacAG/status/1239535638359281...

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#267

Post by JabavuAdams »

jdietrich wrote: post #155
echelon wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the workers being replaced by automation and having to rely on "gig economy" work could pursue manufacturing instead. We have the workforce. We can pay workers livable wages and give them meaningful work. Cost of goods could be reduced through greater efficiency. Research into robotics and automation could fuel a new decade of American growth.

>We have the workforce. That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support. The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would ta…

While this might be true, in the same decades you could have a handful of skilled machinists teach the robots / AIs. The thing about AI anything is that each individual unit gets better with fleet upgrades.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#268

Post by DoingIsLearning »

chuckledog wrote: post #65
Leary wrote: post #26

"Currently, of the 200 million masks China makes a day, only 600,000 are N95 standard masks, used by medical personnel, according to the National Development and Reform Commission, a state planning body. " Wow, that is not enough.

There is quite is quite a bit of information readily available about sterilizing disposable N95 masks with UV-C light. While not nearly as good as a fresh mask, this might be a preferable alternative to reusing the same mask unsterilized. https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(18)30140-8/pd... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699414/ https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/can-uv-light-disi...…

Could the wavelength and power of these bulbs be used to sterilize daily objects used in public transport like mobile phones/wallets?

Is there any guidance regarding duration of UVC radiation exposure and sterilization?

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#269

Post by gmueckl »

tlrobinson wrote: post #119
arcticbull wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

I’m not saying we should protect these jobs by law or anything, but I question whether work that can be automated can't be fulfilling. I keep seeing these “Cafe X” robotic coffee bars in San Francisco. Surely some baristas find their job fulfilling, and some customers enjoy chatting with their human barista instead of a robot? Personally I think I’d have a hard time feeling good about working on something that direct…

You picked an example where the Job includes social interaction, which is a fundamental human need. Let's consider an assembly line worker who fastens the same set of screws over and over again. Do you still come to the same conclusion? Is a dull, repetitive job psychologically harmful over long times?

There are jobs that greatly endanger people's physical health. Mining and construction come to my mind. If automation can make these jobs safer, go for it. For everything else, we will probably end up with a balance between heavy automation and niches where artisans hand craft similar products because they love doing so. It should ideally be a free choice instead if people getting preasured into low skill/low wage/high risk jobs because they need to eat.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#270

Post by owenversteeg »

hguant wrote: post #169
jdietrich wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have the workforce. That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support. The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would ta…

This reminds me of a conversation I had at a New Year's party not too long ago - a gentleman I'd never met before and I got to talking, and in the process of getting to know one another (however much you can know someone after 4-5 drinks at a black tie party you go to once a year), he bemoaned the issues he was having trying to open a US branch of his company. Apparently medium scale sheet metal forming operations in…

>Apparently medium scale sheet metal forming operations in the States have all but disappeared - everything is either outsourced to China, or is small scale, high precision work that can't meet demand of more than N hundred pieces a week.

I can personally confirm this. Very unfortunate, and I'm positive it's helping stifle innovation. Having to go to China for your custom sheet metal needs (with the communication difficulties and shipping times involved) can be -really- debilitating.

Post reply on HN