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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#201

Post by jdietrich »

Paperweight wrote: post #173
jdietrich wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We have the workforce. That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support. The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would ta…

Highly-automated, "clean" manufacturing is all well and good for billion-dollar highly-capitalized, politically-sheltered megafactories, but what about the other 90% of manufacturers? Manufacturing is a dirty, dangerous, manual business. I think the small guys will tell you that environmental regulations killed manufacturing in the west, not labour costs. We've been living in lala land with it all offshore, out of si…

>Manufacturing is a dirty, dangerous, manual business.

It can be, but it can also be clean, safe and highly automated. Fly-by-night operators that run dirty and dangerous shops are not the basis of a sustainable manufacturing economy. China is just damned good at manufacturing. They have everything that is needed - skills, capital, logistics - at an immense scale. They don't offer a cheap but inferior substitute for western manufacturing. They offer speed, flexibility and scalability that western countries could only dream of.

Xi Jinping has a degree in chemical engineering. His predecessor Hu Jintao has a degree in hydraulic engineering. His predecessor Jiang Zemin has a degree in electrical engineering. That is the fundamental reason why China is a manufacturing superpower - for thirty years, the government has been run by people who actually know how to make stuff.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#202

Post by kijin »

kkarakk wrote: post #187
arminiusreturns wrote: post #166

Not all masks are N95 people. It's crazy the amount of grandstanding and virtue signaling going on here. I have had a P100 mask for years with filters in stock, and I am wearing it out on town if I have to. https://www.coopersafety.com/respirator-types

P100 doesn't stop coronavirus...

Nothing stops 100% of viruses. But if everyone wears something -- anything really, even a handkerchief or a piece of toilet paper -- that reduces the chance of infection by 50% for example, there will be only half as many infections compared to the case where nobody wore anything.

After a few rounds of 50% reduection, even a mediocre mask will be able to reduce the number of cases by 99%. And that's all we need to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#203

Post by solatic »

_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

Yes and no. The economic benefits of globalized supply chains are real. The question is not whether or not supply chains should be globalized but how to ensure their safety in the event of a global disruption?

It's days like these that I'm really sad that more Americans don't do military service. Ensuring the long-term viability of large, generally dormant stockpiles is the core competency of the military in peacetime, because the military needs to spin up large numbers of resources on a dime when necessary and can't take several months or years to do so in the face of an imminent attack.

My argument is that the military should maintain large manufacturing capacity that is generally dormant during peacetime (when it is too expensive compared to a globalized supply chain) so that it can be spun up in the event of global supply chain disruptions.

In a day and age where security needs have more to do with economics than geopolitical control, it should arguably be the military's highest priority.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#204

Post by sgift »

tomp wrote: post #164
sneak wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A much simpler option would to stop seeing the world as “them” and “us” and de-emphasize the borders in general. It would be great if it were illegal to control the flows of inputs to and outputs from manufacturing, but I doubt national leaders hellbent on playing the blame game and prioritizing some lives/prosperity over others simply based on the accident of birthplace would ever give up that sort of control they n…

You saw what happened in the EU. No borders but also no shared decision-making and responsibility. It quickly deteriorated to a situation worse than in the US, with each country doing its own thing (including closing most borders), and very little cooperation and helping each other. Trump might not be making the best decisions, but at least he's making decisions for the US! Noone is even trying to make decisions for…

> Noone is even trying to make decisions for Europe...

Of course people are. The EU commission works on it, countries talk to each other. Is there a fully coordinated EU response yet? No. Is there cooperation? Yes.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#205

Post by tim333 »

doodlebugging wrote: post #108
SirLuxuryYacht wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This[0] article goes over recommendations for extended use, reuse, and risks. It also has a healthy list of references, some of which are by Fisher et al., the author of the paper you linked. Most masks have a metal tab bending over the bridge of the nose, as well as metal staples for the elastic bands, which would prevent you from microwaving. Cartridge type filters would work though. [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.go…

I had considered the metal parts of the mask to be a potential problem. In the worst case scenario it should be relatively simple for mask owners to remove the metal tab from the nose and the staples holding the elastic bands before microwaving. Once they are done in the microwave the bands could be stapled in place with your ordinary stapler and the band reattached with hot glue. Those who have a needle and thread c…

Apparently salt on the mask kills viruses https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/01/170105160228.h... https://www.businessinsider.com/mask-coated-in-salt-neutrali...

I was going to DIY. Soak in brine then dry the thing.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#206

Post by lazyjones »

solatic wrote: post #203
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

Yes and no. The economic benefits of globalized supply chains are real. The question is not whether or not supply chains should be globalized but how to ensure their safety in the event of a global disruption? It's days like these that I'm really sad that more Americans don't do military service. Ensuring the long-term viability of large, generally dormant stockpiles is the core competency of the military in peacetim…

> My argument is that the military should maintain large manufacturing capacity that is generally dormant during peacetime (when it is too expensive compared to a globalized supply chain) so that it can be spun up in the event of global supply chain disruptions.

Might be a good solution, but how about having some more generic production capacity instead that can adapt quickly to urgent needs? China is quickly converting whole factories, with some research perhaps this process can be simplified and improved with more expensive, but flexible production technology. 3D printing instead of die casting etc. ...

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#207

Post by jplayer01 »

sneak wrote: post #135
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

A much simpler option would to stop seeing the world as “them” and “us” and de-emphasize the borders in general. It would be great if it were illegal to control the flows of inputs to and outputs from manufacturing, but I doubt national leaders hellbent on playing the blame game and prioritizing some lives/prosperity over others simply based on the accident of birthplace would ever give up that sort of control they n…

Except there are situations such as this one where it doesn't matter how cooperative countries are. Even China was unable to produce enough medical supplies for their own needs, much less for the entire world. The US and Europe absolutely need to rebuild their industrial capacity to be able to cover their own needs in crisis situations. Anything else is just insanity.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#208

Post by lazyjones »

ckcheng wrote: post #198
jhpriestley wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stockpiling essential medical equipment sounds a lot cheaper than autarky.

Stockpiling is good as part of the preparation but isn't enough. e.g. "Five months worth of supplies were used by one hospital in six days" [1] How's any country supposed to stockpile enough at that rate? And stockpiles require upkeep and evergreening. Otherwise things like masks eventually expire [2]. Upkeep costs money too. [1] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politic... [2] https://nationalpost…

> e.g. "Five months worth of supplies were used by one hospital in six days" [1]

Here in Austria we don't even have enough N95 masks for hospital staff and medical personnel. This is completely irresponsible and not impossible to fix. It should be part of any pandemic plan to stockpile these. Things would work much better if at least this was covered now, but sadly it isn't and people will die because of it.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#209

Post by jplayer01 »

ardit33 wrote: post #62
bamboozled wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A “superpower” who can’t seem make enough masks to protect its own medical professionals from a pandemic. It’s an interesting situation.

Rome was a "superpower" militarily but it couldn't feed itself, and had to rely on grain from Egypt and the fertile crescent to feed its population..... Here we can't produce some basic silly things... as it is not that economical during normal times... Perhaps farming subsides are not a crazy type of idea after all.

Am I taking crazy pills? The US and Europe subsidize their agricultural industries heavily and have done so for decades. They're fully or largely capable of feeding themselves - and yes, precisely because these places decided that food is a significant factor for the stability of a country and a national security issue. Hell, people bitch and moan about how agriculture gets so many subisidies (corn in the US? anything in the EU), but frankly, to outsource food production to the rest of the world would seriously threaten the cohesiveness of our countries.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#210

Post by mardifoufs »

dba7dba wrote: post #177

To all those MBAs who excelled at squeezing out the last dollar at any cost to the US society, thanks.

What? How is it the MBAs fault that production was cheaper elsewhere and that consumers always seek the lowest prices? Do you think they should've just ran losses to cover for the rest of us in case of a global pandemic? This has nothing to do with corporate executives and everything to do with national policy.
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