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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#151

Post by remarkEon »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #136
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

When you say that the US needs to "invest in itself", what you really mean is that the US needs to divert investments from industries in which it has a comparative advantage into industries that developing countries have a comparative advantage in.

The "comparative advantage" we enjoy is an artificial creation of deliberate policy choices. The traditional "well this is just econ 101" macroeconomic lectures describe scenarios as they exist, not how they should be. The "comparative advantage" that you think developing countries have is using cheap slave wage labor to produce an unending wave of cheap (mostly plastic) consumer goods that people are quickly realizing in this pandemic they don't really need. Not to mention non-existent environmental regulations.

I hope that this crisis makes people do a deep introspection of their consumption habits, and realize where these "goods" actually come from, and whether it was really worth it to stock our giga stores with this stuff.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#152

Post by blackrock »

9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #106
Retric wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s 3 N95 masks for 200,000 people every day. China meanwhile has over 3 million doctors. So, production clearly needs to ramp up, but it’s not so far off the mark they can’t get there in a few months.

China is down to ~8000 COVID patients, so that number is actually fine. It's supplying the rest of the world that's the problem. http://ncov.dxy.cn/ncovh5/view/pneumonia

Based on the article’s last line, the problem is that it is very difficult to make a profit on masks.

When this thing blows over, no one will buy an N95 mask anymore, and the capital investment will have been wasted, and possibly never be recovered.

Probably the only people making any real money on masks are the hoarders, that collect and sell it for triple the price.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#153

Post by totony »

axaxs wrote: post #133
arcticbull wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank. I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, speci…

amazon go is the self-checking next step and seems to be superior to cashiers altogether

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#154

Post by nerfhammer »

jyrkesh wrote: post #142
nerfhammer wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

they're not nearly as expensive each if you buy a box of them. I think it used to cost like $12 for 2 or $16 for 10, speaking in the before-time of course.

Eh, not in the US. I bought a 10 pack of 3M N95s last April in anticipation of forest fires that had screwed up air quality the last two years. They were $40 for the 10, so roughly the price of a latte per day. Fortunately, the fires didn't happen, so I now have 10 masks, but I have absolutely no idea when/how the right time to bring use them is, and I'm doubtful that 10 would make the difference (my local healthy co…

I think you overpaid, I paid less than half that the last time I bought a box of 10, which was not at a time of high demand.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#155

Post by jdietrich »

echelon wrote: post #46
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

All the workers being replaced by automation and having to rely on "gig economy" work could pursue manufacturing instead. We have the workforce. We can pay workers livable wages and give them meaningful work. Cost of goods could be reduced through greater efficiency. Research into robotics and automation could fuel a new decade of American growth.

>We have the workforce.

That's the problem - you don't. By definition, the kind of efficient, highly-automated manufacturing you're thinking of doesn't need many unskilled or semi-skilled workers, but it does need skilled and experienced engineers and machinists. It needs a massive and complex ecosystem of suppliers and support.

The depletion of America's industrial base has created a massive skills gap that would take decades to remedy. You can't create a new Silicon Valley with a bunch of bootcamp graduates and some wishful thinking; likewise, you can't create a manufacturing economy through sheer force of will.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#156

Post by remarkEon »

sneak wrote: post #148
_2d30 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with the post-national view is that it has to be a consensus view globally. It's a classic prisoner's dilemma. It has to begin with everyone respecting broadly the same general ethics and views on rights. As it turns out, there are countries where women aren't allowed to drive, where religious autocracies rule, where whole populations of religious minorities are imprisoned and enslaved and the people of t…

The problem is that values are not evenly distributed within a country. A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values. Most countries have a pretty big chunk of people in them that would be fine with a religious autocracy that enslaves those who don’t conform to the majority, the US included. It’s the same in every country. There are, for example, a whole bunch of people in the US who are fine with so…

>A nation is not a useful or even approximate proxy for values.

What? Of course it is. Even if you went one level down, states in the United States itself are excellent proxies for the mean values that are held in a particular region. If your point is that every geographic region has groups of people on the fringe, then yeah fine. That's true. But that doesn't mean anything with regard to the usefulness of what makes up a nation or its borders - which are of course proving quite useful during a pandemic.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#157

Post by paulmd »

doodlebugging wrote: post #137
mattkrause wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably want to avoid manipulating the mask a lot, both because it may be contaminated and to avoid punctures.

I agree that the mask could be contaminated. In fact, I would hope that the person wearing the mask has a good reason to wear it, either someone in their household is sick and they are protecting themselves or they are sick and they are protecting everyone else who is home with them. I think it is a bad idea for everyone to wear a mask when there is no threat to their health. With people furloughed home it is likely…

While I suppose it’s an interesting academic discussion, frankly the idea of being able to safely contain an aerosolized upper respiratory disease at home is ludicrous to begin with, so it doesn’t really matter.

The simple truth of the matter is that if you are in a home or apartment with an infected person, and you remain present during their period of high viral shedding, you’re practically certain to contract it as well. You don’t have a negative pressure containment room, your home furnace is going to drag it all over the house. Normal airflow as you open the door will probably drag it out.

It’s perfectly valid to stay and care for grandpa, just don’t have any illusions that you’re not going to get it as well. You 100% will. Doctors who are trained in cleanliness and with access to real, non-makeshift gear are getting it.

That’s fine if you’re not a senior yourself. Severe reactions are fairly rare for anyone under 60 or so. And it can’t really be helped without abandoning grandpa.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#158

Post by nl »

treparist wrote: post #12
droithomme wrote: post #2

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. And by better than nothing we mean reasonably effective. Going into close contact with a person who has a known transmissible respiratory illness? N95 is minimum if you are a professional. And get your union to scream bloody murder if you are not allowed this essential safety equipment, and put complaints in writing so your heirs can later sue to oblivion. Try…

Surgical and homemade masks are much better than nothing. /Thats basically a misinformation. They are completely useless, and if you dont change them each 40-50 minutes - bring you more damage then good

Homemade masks can be quite effective: http://dx.doi.org/10.3201/eid1206.051468

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#159

Post by doodlebugging »

blackrock wrote: post #152
9nGQluzmnq3M wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is down to ~8000 COVID patients, so that number is actually fine. It's supplying the rest of the world that's the problem. http://ncov.dxy.cn/ncovh5/view/pneumonia

Based on the article’s last line, the problem is that it is very difficult to make a profit on masks. When this thing blows over, no one will buy an N95 mask anymore, and the capital investment will have been wasted, and possibly never be recovered. Probably the only people making any real money on masks are the hoarders, that collect and sell it for triple the price.

I disagree with the idea that no one will will an N95 mask after this threat ends. I personally use N95 masks in my shop all the time. I have a collection of masks for various filtration tasks including dust, welding gases, paint and organic vapors, and even an asbestos rated dust mask. Some of them are disposable N95 or N99 masks while others are half-face canister cartidge masks.

There will always be a market for masks and I think the price will go back down to normal levels - under $30 for 20 disposable masks.

Plus you have to consider that medical workers who use different N95 masks than I need, will always need protection from airborne threats. That won't change at all. The only change will be the threat itself.

People that hoarded these masks to gouge others should be held to account for that. I considered buying masks for my family but once I decided it might be a good idea, they were in short supply and the gougers had taken over the market. I currently have a few masks in my shop but almost all of them are used. I just bag them in a ziploc between uses so they don't absorb any fumes or get dusty or in the worst case, get pissed on by the rats that I'm trying to keep out of my shop.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#160

Post by jhanschoo »

Scoundreller wrote: post #116
adrianN wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The masks filter pollution about as effectively after prolonged use as when they're new. The problem for medical use is contamination with germs.

> The masks filter pollution about as effectively after prolonged use as when they're new. Filters generally get better at filtering as they get dirty. A pore with a mountain of dirt/dust over it gets even better at only permitting gasses through. But that also means less and less flow, until you're letting nothing through at all. I think the other problem for medical use is moisture buildup. A damp/wet/sweaty N95 do…

Do you have a source for that? The recommendations I've seen suggest otherwise, and this matches my intuition.

Wear creates and enlarges pores, and also, pores of the right size get clogged resulting in more flow over pores that are too large to filter.

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