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Why N95 masks are hard to make

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Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#131

Post by danans »

bamboozled wrote: post #51
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

A “superpower” who can’t seem make enough masks to protect its own medical professionals from a pandemic. It’s an interesting situation.

"Superpower" in the American context is largely about our ability to project our military and economic power upon other societies, not about our ability to provide for the well-being of all Americans.

You could even (cynically) look at it the other way, that part of our "superpower" is the projection upon the world of the disaffection and anger that we breed internally by not providing for the well-being of all our citizens (in ways far more severe than a dearth of N95 masks). You see that phenomenon much more clearly in dictatorships and autocracies, but to an extent it's here too.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#132

Post by jyrkesh »

arcticbull wrote: post #112
echelon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should proofread and given examples. Lack of caffeine from WFH isn't helping me. There are many types of automation. Grocery workers (cashiers, stockers) are replaced with robotics and self-checkout (which automates pricing and theft detection) that removes them from the equation. Automobile machinists and doctors are supplemented with robotics that let them do higher-precision work and avoid mundane and/or stressf…

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

I agree with you generally, but the issue is really that we (in the US) replaced manufacturing with some combination of the perception and externalization of automation. We shipped it all overseas and said "we really don't care how you get it done, but if you can consistently do it at this price, you may as well be an 'automated' black box to us".

If it was fully automated today, we should be able to do it here. Build the same machines. Hell, buy the machines from over there, and set them up here. Then figure out how to pay everyone for the service/idea/artsy work. Whatever they wanna do, at least we can afford the masks when we need them, right? (And the healthcare, and the iPhones, and the whatever else is either absolutely necessary or has supposedly been automated.)

But it's not, so the conversation is really about how we can afford to pay people a living wage in a country with a higher cost of living when they're working as underpriced supplemental labor for not-quite-there automation.

And the reality is that we can't: we externalized that lower wage and we slapped an "automation" sticker on it so that everyone would jump on board. Then we realized that we don't own the automation AND we're eliminating the jobs that automation is replacing instead of retooling the existing jobs to ride the technology curve of said automation as its benefits start to grow.

Again, this is all a very America-centric view, but I think it applies to pockets of Europe as well. And if I was living in certain Asian countries, I think I'd be stoked as hell about the increase in wages that could continue to meet the cost of a rapidly increasing standard of living.

I should also say I'm very much in favor of free trade, and I think that mercantilism/protectionism is net negative for the global welfare of humanity. But I think there was an opportunity that a lot of short-sighted American manufacturing powerhouses missed when they agreed to sign up for the Chinese manufacturing equivalent of SaaS.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#133

Post by axaxs »

arcticbull wrote: post #112
echelon wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should proofread and given examples. Lack of caffeine from WFH isn't helping me. There are many types of automation. Grocery workers (cashiers, stockers) are replaced with robotics and self-checkout (which automates pricing and theft detection) that removes them from the equation. Automobile machinists and doctors are supplemented with robotics that let them do higher-precision work and avoid mundane and/or stressf…

I don't understand why we insist on keeping people in jobs that can be automated. Let them go pursue something that's fulfilling. Not automating something that can be just to keep people doing jobs we don't need done is a fascinating make-work project. The displaced should be re-trained, provided meaningful opportunities, or yeah, paid basic income out of the money saved by them not going to work. Why pay them to do…

Because to me, the consumer, I can't think of a single time automation replacing humans has been better. Self checkouts suck for anything more than a handful of items, especially compared to a well trained cashier/bagger combo. Automated call/IVR systems are hypertension inducing bad. ATMs are no replacement for tellers for most situations that bring one to the bank.

I'm not a complete luddite. In many systems, specifically manufacturing, robots outcompete humans and it makes sense.

The problem arises when anything requiring the least bit of thinking is attempted to be automated. Those are nothing more than cost saving measures, and bring down the quality of service to everyone involved.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#134

Post by [deleted] »

ardit33 wrote: post #62
bamboozled wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A “superpower” who can’t seem make enough masks to protect its own medical professionals from a pandemic. It’s an interesting situation.

Rome was a "superpower" militarily but it couldn't feed itself, and had to rely on grain from Egypt and the fertile crescent to feed its population..... Here we can't produce some basic silly things... as it is not that economical during normal times... Perhaps farming subsides are not a crazy type of idea after all.

[deleted]

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#135

Post by sneak »

_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

A much simpler option would to stop seeing the world as “them” and “us” and de-emphasize the borders in general.

It would be great if it were illegal to control the flows of inputs to and outputs from manufacturing, but I doubt national leaders hellbent on playing the blame game and prioritizing some lives/prosperity over others simply based on the accident of birthplace would ever give up that sort of control they now exercise.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#136

Post by KKKKkkkk1 »

_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

When you say that the US needs to "invest in itself", what you really mean is that the US needs to divert investments from industries in which it has a comparative advantage into industries that developing countries have a comparative advantage in.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#137

Post by doodlebugging »

mattkrause wrote: post #124
doodlebugging wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had considered the metal parts of the mask to be a potential problem. In the worst case scenario it should be relatively simple for mask owners to remove the metal tab from the nose and the staples holding the elastic bands before microwaving. Once they are done in the microwave the bands could be stapled in place with your ordinary stapler and the band reattached with hot glue. Those who have a needle and thread c…

You probably want to avoid manipulating the mask a lot, both because it may be contaminated and to avoid punctures.

I agree that the mask could be contaminated. In fact, I would hope that the person wearing the mask has a good reason to wear it, either someone in their household is sick and they are protecting themselves or they are sick and they are protecting everyone else who is home with them. I think it is a bad idea for everyone to wear a mask when there is no threat to their health. With people furloughed home it is likely that many of us can avoid contact with an infected person and therefore we don't need masks.

But if the user has paid close enough attention these last few weeks, then they are probably already washing hands anyway so as long as they wash up after putting the mask in the microwave and before they touch their face they should be good.

If the mask is punctured that creates a much larger path for droplets to get behind the mask or if the user is the infected one, to get past the mask into the clean air on the other side. To mitigate that situation, there is no reason that I can see where coating the puncture with elmer's glue, hot glue, etc doesn't solve that issue.

Bending the mask will probably create permeability that could allow larger particles to pass anyway. The plastic filaments they talk about are not likely to hold up to much flexing and it is a decrease in the tortuosity of the path through the media that creates the risk. Therefore, breakage along clearly defined planes creates an easy path through the media even if the mask is perfectly fitted to spec. I think bending the mask is the easiest way to send it out of spec so like you say, manipulating the mask creates a situation where it may no longer be effective against the particles sizes that it should protect against.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#138

Post by chuckledog »

jennyyang wrote: post #115
chuckledog wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is quite is quite a bit of information readily available about sterilizing disposable N95 masks with UV-C light. While not nearly as good as a fresh mask, this might be a preferable alternative to reusing the same mask unsterilized. https://www.ajicjournal.org/article/S0196-6553(18)30140-8/pd... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4699414/ https://www.peakprosperity.com/forum-topic/can-uv-light-disi...…

We actually bought 2 UVC light bulbs just to sterilize my masks. We only have a handful, and believed early on that UVC could make them reusable, but have no proof. But using them is very hard. They produce ozone which is harmful to your lungs, and the light themselves are harmful to your eyes and skin. So I don't have a safe way to set this up yet. Now that we are all quarantined maybe we can have more time to figur…

Browsing Amazon, it seems that there are some UVC bulbs that specifically avoid ozone creation. Other variants are marked “with ozone”, and for some reason both variants typically cost the same. I bought one “no ozone” and plan to put it in inside a reflective “pouch” (actually just a silver lined grocery carrier) for sterilizing things without exposing anything outside the bag to the UVC light.

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#139

Post by bamboozled »

gdubs wrote: post #121
bamboozled wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well two things come to mind here: - People can learn from Rome's mistakes. - Rome did at least some farming. - Rome is no more.

I’m reminded of an old saying that there two hard things in Computer Science: - cache invalidation - naming things - and off-by-one errors

In the spirit of good humor, I will not edit my comment :)

Re: Why N95 masks are hard to make

#140

Post by _2d30 »

KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #136
_2d30 wrote: post #13

I do believe these masks are also made in the US, but this situation highlights exactly why a country having its own major manufacturing base is not just an economic need but rather also a national security need. The US needs to invest in itself immediately to rebuild its lost manufacturing base. In economic terms, under certain definitions and assumptions that are typical under modern economics, a trade war such as…

When you say that the US needs to "invest in itself", what you really mean is that the US needs to divert investments from industries in which it has a comparative advantage into industries that developing countries have a comparative advantage in.

If investment were somehow zero sum, yes that's a large part of what I would mean. Luckily, for my point to continue standing without being reduced to that, investment is indeed not zero-sum.
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