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Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

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Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#31

Post by squidfish »

jdoss wrote: post #27
squidfish wrote: post #17

Actually, Resmed and Philips can probably reflash firmware on almost all there basic CPAP machines manufactured within past few years, thereby making them into BiPAP type devices. BiPAPs are sort of "in between" a CPAP and a ventilator. This would actually be a good public service if they would do for free and provide to hospitals, etc. for emergency use.

I was just thinking the same thing. My 5yo son has a wimpy immune system and asthma. We have spent some scary times in the ER/PICU when he gets a bad lung based cold. I am thinking about how I can convert one of my old CPAPs into a ventilator if I can't get him into a hospital to get the care he will need due to the healthcare system being overwhelmed. It should be obvious, but I will say it to be clear. This would b…

Really, you don't need to "convert" anything much. Plain old CPAP is better than nothing (especially if it has c-flex (or diff name depending on manufacturer) to allow for decreased pressure during exhale). In fact it is WAY better than nothing if a person is needing support and can't get them in help as we may soon be encountering.

There are forums out there that teach you how to adjust the settings on your CPAP/APAP/BiPAP machines, including how to get into the "clinician mode" to make REAL adjustments (e.g., like pressing and holding two buttons down on machine for couple seconds puts you into clinician menu settings). There is also software out there that will let you download the data from the SD card in most machines to your computer and analyze it. This isn't terribly critical, but if you have motivation / need it is handy to know how to do this. Makes titration much faster/easier and with less trial and error.

sleepyhead is the name of software (open source, no long maaintained unfortunatly but entirely functional still). Just google for sleep apnea forums.

Good luck with your son and rest of family!

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#32

Post by [deleted] »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

[deleted]

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#33

Post by serf »

gentleman11 wrote: post #30
ploika wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is just something. This something is not necessarily better than nothing. It could be an awful lot worse than nothing, especially since it's coming from GitHub and not somewhere like the Red Cross or MSF, with experience of medical care in tough environments , that knows the difference between "actually better than nothing" and "just something".

Can anybody comment? How could it be worse than nothing, and is there a way to evaluate these designs? Imagine somebody had parents with lung issues and the hospitals were turning away old people with such conditions in 1-2 months

>Can anybody comment? How could it be worse than nothing

by giving those under-qualified to accurately diagnose a condition medical equipment that requires expertise to use, you increase the chances of incorrect use and non-indicated use.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#34

Post by squidfish »

gentleman11 wrote: post #26
squidfish wrote: post #17

Actually, Resmed and Philips can probably reflash firmware on almost all there basic CPAP machines manufactured within past few years, thereby making them into BiPAP type devices. BiPAPs are sort of "in between" a CPAP and a ventilator. This would actually be a good public service if they would do for free and provide to hospitals, etc. for emergency use.

I hear a lot of CPAP owners hack their devices for privacy reasons. I wonder if just any technical user could do this today? What would be required?

Google. There are handful of sleep apnea forums with instructions on how to enter into the "clinician mode" of most machines. From there, you can adjust modes, pressure levels, etc. Said forums also have wealth of information on WHAT to change. There is also software called "sleepyhead" that is free and downloadable if you really want to geek out and understand the data saved by the machine.

I "hack" (not really, just doing stuff / adjustments that clinics supposed to do) my machine for no other reason than they clinicians are useless once they sell you a sleep study and machine. You are typically on your own once you get it unfortunately, which is why the success rate of people using CPAP machines is usually pretty low. It can be a frustrating process without help and even if you do have good clinician, it is still frustrating to get used to it (some moreso than others).

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#35

Post by lightgreen »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

Because that manufacturer is not a monopoly, if they won’t produces, other will.

Also, government is much less effective at producing things than private companies.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#36

Post by hyperion2010 »

This probably should have gone on the thread about flattening the curve not being enough. But.

Where is the core team of 12 people plus 108 collaborators that should have been assembled a month and a half ago to figure out how to retune US manufacturing to start producing stripped down ICU beds and the supplies needed to keep them operational?

This game is easy. The parameters are well understood. You could assign the basic problem to a middle schooler. Getting realistic numbers? Well it doesn't matter, no matter what those number are, every single fully functional ICU bed that can be brought online in the next 2 weeks is probably going to save 2 lives. According to some of the other economic analysis that has been posted here today suggesting that we let people die, that is 18 million dollars in human lives.

How many fully stocked ICU beds can you make for 18 million dollars? There's your startup idea for the next 2 weeks.

Not ignoring the fact that you need a team to staff it and work it, but guess what, you ALSO have two weeks to train as many people as you can to run these things.

WHERE IS THIS TEAM?

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#37

Post by dionian »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

not sure gov't can do that without legislation - which would need support of voters

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#38

Post by [deleted] »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #36

This probably should have gone on the thread about flattening the curve not being enough. But. Where is the core team of 12 people plus 108 collaborators that should have been assembled a month and a half ago to figure out how to retune US manufacturing to start producing stripped down ICU beds and the supplies needed to keep them operational? This game is easy. The parameters are well understood. You could assign th…

[deleted]

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#39

Post by 3fe9a03ccd14ca5 »

hyperion2010 wrote: post #36

This probably should have gone on the thread about flattening the curve not being enough. But. Where is the core team of 12 people plus 108 collaborators that should have been assembled a month and a half ago to figure out how to retune US manufacturing to start producing stripped down ICU beds and the supplies needed to keep them operational? This game is easy. The parameters are well understood. You could assign th…

> Where is the core team of 12 people plus 108 collaborators that should have been assembled a month and a half ago

You don’t understand where things were at a month ago. I had a fight with my wife at Costco because she thought I was wasting money and overreacting when I purchased the 50 lb bag of rice (among other items).

She understands now. We all do. But a month ago people were in absolute denial about the inevitable and it was impossible then to convince them otherwise.

Re: Low-Cost Arduino-Based Ventilator

#40

Post by Johnny555 »

shiftpgdn wrote: post #21
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #9

What we really need is a simple ventilator, designed by manufacturers who already know how to design and build these and produced at enormous scale using a shadow factory system similar to that developed in world war 2. In this model, the original manufacturer steps in to guide production, carry out quality control and probably supply the control electronics and software. All physical objects on which our civilisatio…

Devil's advocate: Why would a manufacturer consider damaging what is a potential mega cash cow? I read earlier that ventilators generally sell for $40-70,000USD to hospitals (who then go on to charge $20-40k for ventilator based treatment.) We're much better off right now with the government seizing the means of production and figuring out how to make as many as possible.

Planned obsolescence - just tell the hospitals that the cheap $5K ventilator is less durable than the $40K model, and won't be supported after the outbreak. And get the FDA (or whoever certifies medical devices) to do the same - give the cheap units an accelerated approval with a short expiration date.
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