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“I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

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Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#251
post #114

Some solutions that already exist, are already in use and could be firmed up: 1. Working from home. 2. Ordering online and getting takeout. 3. Using self checkout. 4. Collaboration and socialization via phone and internet. You can't get sick if you aren't exposed. People don't get sick due to some random number generator. You have to have a vector. We already know a great many ways to disrupt the spread. The antidote…

> You can't get sick if you aren't exposed. The problem isn't the short-term; the problem is the long term. Are you suggesting the entire world work from home and interact only over the internet for the rest of our lives? One of the biggest questions in this thread is specifically what kind of immunity we can have from the virus. If catching it gives you 10-year immunity, then slowing things down might work. But what…

Are you suggesting the entire world work from home and interact only over the internet for the rest of our lives?

No, of course not.

But some people who are especially vulnerable can work from home permanently.

We can permanently crack down on things like cashiers licking their fingers to help them open bags.

I have a compromised immune system. The gross behavior of cashiers is one of my single biggest headaches in life. If we recognized how critical a link they are in transmitting disease and took that threat seriously, I imagine people would generally be healthier.

We also can design public bathrooms without doors so you don't have to touch the handle. Walmart has that mastered.

We also can make it more the standard for public bathrooms to have no-touch technology, such as hand dryers and faucets that are motion activated.

We can permanently move to bowing instead of shaking hands. Several older cultures have such practices.

We can more widely adopt the practice of removing our shoes at the front door when we get home rather than tracking dirt all over the house. There are plenty of cultures that do that.

We can move away from wall-to-wall carpeting in most homes in the US. It is not the norm in other countries.

We can move to passive solar design and away from forced air HVAC systems.

I'm suggesting that this isn't a situation where we need to throw our hands up and just be resigned to it being utterly futile. There are many things we can do to reduce the transmission of disease without simply calling a halt to life. And for a professional scientist to suggest otherwise is basically being alarmist because they are stressed out or because the solutions don't fit their mental models of "just pop a pill" or whatever.

They are boring and a lot of them are basically the purview of what housewives historically did. And no one wants to admit housewives did anything of real value.

American culture acts like homemakers and full-time moms are losers and leeches and not actually contributing anything of real value to the economy. A charitable reading of that is that it's a blind spot and people just don't get it.

A less charitable reading is that it's misogynistic BS rooted in intentionally being disrespectful of women and of the value and importance of "women's work" and that people would literally rather die than admit that women's work has real value on par with what important men do, like doctors and scientists. And to whatever degree that is true, the world can now either get over its crap or die due to clinging to it.

A lot of people may die over that. Change tends to occur one funeral at a time because most people stubbornly cling to their ideas and refuse to change.

This can either be an age of enlightenment or a new dark age.

Ain't no big thing. We're all dust in the wind anyway. But the dark path is not the only option.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#252
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal attacks aren't allowed on HN regardless of how stupid someone is or you feel they are. Even if you don't owe David Graeber better (though you do), you definitely owe this community better if you're posting to it. Comments like this add rotational momentum to the downward spiral. It's a pity, because your comment also makes some good points. But adding poison to the commons is more significant. If you'd pleas…

And I definitely don't owe David Graeber better. He is a public menace who actively removes understanding from the world.

Ok, but please don't miss the main point: you owe the community better if you're posting here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#253
post #85

I don't understand why we are not trying to interrupt the transmission vectors with masks and hand sanitizer like the Chinese do. They ramped the daily production from 10M to 100M and even advised the use of make-shift masks. The reaction in the west: masks are not protecting 100% and also we don't have any and we are too lazy to produce them, although they are much cheaper than the economic impact covid-19 has. 1. y…

I love how everyone wants to talk about masks and hand sanitizer, but not about gloves or good old soap and water. To me, it's a sign of wanting to score internet points more than to actually inform. The best information I've seen so far suggests that SARS-CoV-2 can survive 2-3 hours as aerosol, 2-3 days on some surfaces. You're much more likely to be exposed or to expose others by touching something than by walking around. The "hottest" thing you've been around recently is probably the door handle or the credit-card terminal you touched when you went to buy a year's worth of toilet paper. And what's the surest way to prevent infection via touch? A physical barrier.

People who walk around wearing masks but not gloves are making a fashion statement. People who are serious about the issue (including health-care workers) wear both.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine a future where you do a swab test every morning while brushing your teeth. If you had any of thousands of infectious diseases, you're required to stay home. The test would take only 5 minutes, and you get fined if you don't do it, and receive sick pay if you test positive. I imagine that within a few years of rolling this out, common colds might be a thing of the past, and overall worker productivity higher r…

Imagine a future where you do a swab every morning while brushing your teeth and your testosterone and adrenaline levels are evaluated for likelihood of engaging in Anti-Social or Anti-Authority Activity. Individuals with high levels are locked into their apartments and subject to online training courses. Repeated violations result in a visit from the authorities. Yeah, no thanks. Not every solution to a serious prob…

I'm not sure why you invented your own scenario to call bad.

Checking if someone has the flu isn't dystopian. Full sick pay isn't dystopian. You don't even need the fine if that offends you so much.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#255
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that each delivery rider can do his job without getting within 6 feet of any other person during his shift. They do come closer but their job can be easily changed so that they don't. Uber drivers are entirely other thing. Maybe driving people should be only allowed if you have a car that has completely separate spaces for the driver and the rider and where spece for the rider can be fully vented and disi…

Have you considered that most normal human beings require social interaction with others to maintain mental health. Solitary confinement is considered torture by many for a reason. In addition, digital forms of social interaction are obviously not subsitutes for physical interaction, especially considering the harmful effects social media and dating apps already have on mental health. I definitely wouldn't want to li…

Social interaction doesn't require breathing the same air. Internet is wonderful place of bustling social interaction. I'm doing way more social interaction with you just by writing this comment than I usually do by going outside and apparently Zuckerberg has no say in it.

Solitary confinement is a torture not because of the solitary part. It's because of the boredom part. How unpleasent do you think would be solitary confinement for nearly all people if it was done in a library with internet access and netflix account instead of small dark empty cell?

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#256

I don't agree with the conclusion. We can scale down our economies and still maintain production of essentials by ` `drumroll` ` scaling back shit that nobody needs. Starting with an overblown healthcare admin system in the US, IMHO, but also including less inflammatory non-essential things like yet another range of plastic toys and luxury perfumes and and and. Essentially in this scenario, we should take this as an…

> ``drumroll`` scaling back shit that nobody needs. Maybe, but what do you do with people whose livelihood depend on those superfluous bullshit jobs? Until we have a system that guarantees a right to life even if you do nothing productive , those busyworks are used to justify giving food, shelter and healthcare to those people.

Maybe, but what do you do with people whose livelihood depend on those superfluous bullshit jobs?

Give them work in production of things people need or delivering things people need.

> system that guarantees a right to life even if you do nothing productive

How could such a system work? Wouldn't that motivate everyone to stop being productive ?

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't need or want some external authority to tell me if I'm allowed to leave my house. In a world full of Covid19 mutations, some even more lethal than the current one you actually might need external authority to tell you if you can leave the house because you yourself will lack technology to asses the risks involved and your decision making even if you have the information might be very dangerous to other peop…

As I said in the original comment: > Not every solution to a serious problem needs to be some surveillance state dystopian nightmare. The authoritarian response of shutting everything down, locking people in their homes and instituting all-but-in-name-martial law seems like a massive lack of creativity to me. Plagues are not a new phenomenon. We can come up with better solutions - as Taiwan and Singapore seem to be d…

Authority is not authoritarian if it tries to make you do the most scientifically reasonable thing.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#258
post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live, it's common for people to just call in and stay home for the day when they are sick. They don't need to game a device or convince a doctor. There is some trust. Maybe this could be tried elswhere?

When the money comes from the employer, there is incentive to root out and eliminate significant fraud. When the money comes from the sky/government, there is much less. We have a nice wooden fence that was (properly) built around/over the roots of a city-owner tree. The city later removed the tree and the fence now looked dumb where it had been trimmed around the roots. A neighbor stopped by and advised me that I sh…

> I asked her if she thought it was her responsibility to pay for it. “Of course not; that’s ridiculous!” “Well, that’s why I’m not asking the city to pay for it...”

That's a really dumb argument. I can list a thousand things where I shouldn't pay (all) of it, but I should pay (1/10000) of it as part of having the city pay for it.

You're playing a cheap rhetorical trick, not winning a real debate.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the usual trend is for viruses to mutate in a less dangerous direction. This trend is for viruses that are in danger of killing their hosts before spreading. This coronavirus is so infectious that it's nowhere near that. Hence it can even mutate into more lethal form without risking its ability to spread.

Mutations are random. What is not random is how human society selects from the pool of random mutations. I am thankful that we do not have a global ground war in progress right now. I believe that political pressure to keep the healthy isolated on the front lines, with the sick going home to society -- this reverse version of containment -- was 1918 society selecting the more lethal mutations for increased reproducti…

> perhaps we should not overwhelm the hospitals with the herd immunity approach.

Which is great because that's the same thing everybody selfishly would like to do just to have access to healthcare when he needs it.

Everybody in the world seems to understand that except perhaps Boris Johnson.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#260
post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that each delivery rider can do his job without getting within 6 feet of any other person during his shift. They do come closer but their job can be easily changed so that they don't. Uber drivers are entirely other thing. Maybe driving people should be only allowed if you have a car that has completely separate spaces for the driver and the rider and where spece for the rider can be fully vented and disi…

Have you considered that most normal human beings require social interaction with others to maintain mental health. Solitary confinement is considered torture by many for a reason. In addition, digital forms of social interaction are obviously not subsitutes for physical interaction, especially considering the harmful effects social media and dating apps already have on mental health. I definitely wouldn't want to li…

I have a compromised immune system. I have a close relationship to my two adult sons who still live with me. I don't like strangers touching me.

Historically, humans lived in small, close-knit family units or small villages. The human mind is optimized to deal with a social group of about 150 people, not a city of thousands.

A lot of our loneliness and similar problems could be largely resolved if we returned to a pattern of small, close-knit communities as our norm and we could improve germ control at the same time.

It's a general human norm that most cultures promote a long-term, monogamous relationship as the standard. Sex is vastly less dangerous if two people are only intimate with each other and neither of them sleeps around.

Reducing casual social contact in no way means we simply can't get our social needs met. It can mean the opposite. It can mean a return to meaningful social bonds instead of casual hookups from grinder.

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