“I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing” • Hacker News Board

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#231

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:37 AM UTC

QuesnayJr wrote: post #196

TeMPOraL wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit jobs are the job market equivalent of software bloat. They have the same issues: you can take a popular modern webapp or "desktop" app and notice that it's 80% of fat that isn't necessary for it to deliver all its value, but if you zoom in, almost every single piece of that fat can justify its existence because of other pieces. So you can't just start cutting it out piece by piece, you'd have to redesign the…

Defining jobs as "bullshit" requires imagining you can design large chunks of society from scratch. Sometimes you can, but more often you end up with a system as complicated at the current system. In utopia, we wouldn't need any lawyers. But we have lawyers now because we have disputes. Utopian planners always skip to the part where all the disputes are magically settled, or invent a mechanism only tested within thei…

> Defining jobs as "bullshit" requires imagining you can design large chunks of society from scratch.

Or you can change one requirement and suddenly you can delete huge chunk of cruft because it no longer serves any useful function.

For the economy this requirement would be "You need to do any job anyone can be persuaded to pay for, to have an excuse to not to starve to death." If you mostly remove this requirement a lot of bullshit jobs will disappear just by removing work supply.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#232

Post by aaron695 » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:39 AM UTC

rapsey wrote: post #3

Is covid-19 the biggest world event since WW2?

HIV, I doubt cov-19 will be bigger, but possible if it circles.

Economic deaths from both are huge.

But everyone seems to have forgotten HIV, which says a bit.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#233

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:42 AM UTC

lolc wrote: post #218

sokoloff wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not necessarily. If the primary vector is respiration but the reception can be through mucous membranes, then a mask that doesn’t cover the eyes (or doesn’t protect hands which later rub your eyes), then a mask would be more effective on those infected than it would be for those not infected.

As far as I know a mask is more effective to contain when worn by the infected. But that doesn't mean the not-infected (including those who mistakenly think they are not infected!) to not wear one. Because it does protect. Not only from airborne droplets but also from smear infections. Reducing the likelihood of infection by ten percent can make the difference between eradication and an epidemic.

It absolutely helps. I was only describing how asymmetry in effect can arise from symmetry in a passive filter.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#234

Post by maest » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:42 AM UTC

Gupie wrote: post #192

mcsb4 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please stop spreading this false information and have a look at the infection numbers in China. The masks stop droplets coming from your mouth and nose and if everybody wears them, then they are a very effective mean to massively slowing down the spreading of the virus. No, the masks are not 100% virus tight. Yes, they prevent spreading of diseases. That's why they are worn by surgeons. They are 20 cents a piece, tha…

This is the advise we are getting "If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection." https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2... "If you are not sick, do not buy a face mask. If you have one already and you are well, it is not recommended that you use it." https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/03/dont-panic-the-compr... Is this…

It's really baffling that the WHO is actively recommending _against_ face masks. They even go as far as saying not to wear a mask _even if you already own one_ which they arguably wouldn't do if they were worried about shortages.

I mean, maybe they're going for the social dissaproval angle - you can stop people from hoarding masks by making it socially bad to wear a mask, but that seems misguided if true.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#235

Post by macintux » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:44 AM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #124

kingkawn wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your certainty is as factual as a wish upon a star

I am basing this on the news reports which say a german company is ready for in-human-trials which last months. after that, they would be able to produce millions of vaccinations in weeks. I think it's very promising. The us president apparantly also thinks so, since he has been trying to bribe them into exclusivity.

We don’t even know that a long-term vaccine is possible, much less that this specific one is going to work and not have catastrophic health impact on the trial subjects.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#236

Post by lazylizard » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:45 AM UTC

I'm sure many will point this out. A few east asian countries beg to differ. Namely China, s.korea, taiwan, singapore. Solutions even come in different sizes!

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#237

Post by sokoloff » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:46 AM UTC

lolc wrote: post #221

sokoloff wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would expect a gaming system to emerge (to force positive test results when people wanted time off without suffering any consequences). Done well, that might be the most valuable purely wasteful invention ever created.

Where I live, it's common for people to just call in and stay home for the day when they are sick. They don't need to game a device or convince a doctor. There is some trust. Maybe this could be tried elswhere?

When the money comes from the employer, there is incentive to root out and eliminate significant fraud. When the money comes from the sky/government, there is much less.

We have a nice wooden fence that was (properly) built around/over the roots of a city-owner tree. The city later removed the tree and the fence now looked dumb where it had been trimmed around the roots. A neighbor stopped by and advised me that I should call the city and have them pay to replace that section of fence. Said it shouldn’t be my responsibility to pay for it. I asked her if she thought it was her responsibility to pay for it. “Of course not; that’s ridiculous!” “Well, that’s why I’m not asking the city to pay for it...”

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#238

Post by giantDinosaur » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:46 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #55

Majestic121 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-consumerism, anti-militarism and focusing on social security is not as rebel and edgy as you seem to think it is. If you get downvoted, it's probably more due to the childish tone of your comment rather than for your opinions

OP doesn't advocate anti-militarism, it's advocate to keep army at home. This is two very different things. A country can keep a top-notch army while not invading another country every decade. Japan is the best example of that, with its use of military largely restricted by the constitution.

You don't actually know if your military is 'top notch' unless it engages frequently in combat. One might like to think you're as good as your last war, but it's impossible to really tell without conflict. Everything else is just various feel-good metrics and games.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#239

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:49 AM UTC

Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #215

scotty79 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting the entire world work from home and interact only over the internet for the rest of our lives? Seems perfectly fine to me. Some essential jobs require manual skills but I think those can be organised to avoid most of the physical human contact. Some can be phase out by more automation. And we have so many inessential jobs in this economy that shedding them might be beneficial to us all. Do we rea…

Not really. The delivery riders, Uber drivers, couriers and postal workers that bring you all that stuff you can order online like food and goods. The people that work maintaining the cables for your ISP (and the technicians in their data centers) that let you work from home in the first place. The people that clean your streets. Ambulance drivers. Taxi drivers. Cooks. The people that collect your garbage. The people…

My point is that each delivery rider can do his job without getting within 6 feet of any other person during his shift. They do come closer but their job can be easily changed so that they don't.

Uber drivers are entirely other thing. Maybe driving people should be only allowed if you have a car that has completely separate spaces for the driver and the rider and where spece for the rider can be fully vented and disinfected after each rider, which maybe again should be mandatory.

A lot of people can't do their essential jobs remotely. But very few of them can't do those jobs not in groups and not in contact with other people.

The world before covid looked how it looked not out of necessity, but just because we didn't have to pay attention to some things.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#240

Post by roenxi » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:50 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #213

mcsb4 wrote: post #85

I don't understand why we are not trying to interrupt the transmission vectors with masks and hand sanitizer like the Chinese do. They ramped the daily production from 10M to 100M and even advised the use of make-shift masks. The reaction in the west: masks are not protecting 100% and also we don't have any and we are too lazy to produce them, although they are much cheaper than the economic impact covid-19 has. 1. y…

> 1. you go out, you wear a mask If you can get a mask. The mask manufacturers in the West are not going to ramp up without a significant amount of money up front. The last time they did with SARS they almost went bankrupt after it fizzled out and demand collapsed: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/02/15/coronavir... So, you need the US government to either command or fund the manufacturing ramp up. Unfort…

Or we could encourage mask producers to charge more during a crisis.

If mask producers could charge enough that the masks weren't quite fly off the shelves, we would be swimming in masks made and kept in storage for times of pandemic. It is pretty obvious what happens; producers are shamed into not making a profit when demand is high so they don't bother to produce.