“I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing” • Hacker News Board

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#241

Post by QuesnayJr » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #231

QuesnayJr wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Defining jobs as "bullshit" requires imagining you can design large chunks of society from scratch. Sometimes you can, but more often you end up with a system as complicated at the current system. In utopia, we wouldn't need any lawyers. But we have lawyers now because we have disputes. Utopian planners always skip to the part where all the disputes are magically settled, or invent a mechanism only tested within thei…

> Defining jobs as "bullshit" requires imagining you can design large chunks of society from scratch. Or you can change one requirement and suddenly you can delete huge chunk of cruft because it no longer serves any useful function. For the economy this requirement would be "You need to do any job anyone can be persuaded to pay for, to have an excuse to not to starve to death." If you mostly remove this requirement a…

We would collapse back to a subsistence-level economy, but sure.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#242

Post by geomark » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

bosswipe wrote: post #111

mcsb4 wrote: post #85

I don't understand why we are not trying to interrupt the transmission vectors with masks and hand sanitizer like the Chinese do. They ramped the daily production from 10M to 100M and even advised the use of make-shift masks. The reaction in the west: masks are not protecting 100% and also we don't have any and we are too lazy to produce them, although they are much cheaper than the economic impact covid-19 has. 1. y…

The anti-mask thing in the west is so upsetting, and it's more aggravating because it's the health care workers giving the horrible advice. I don't care that we don't have enough N95 masks for everybody, N95 are for preventing inhalation of virus. What we need are the disparaged "surgical" masks which are for preventing spittle flying everywhere. And they do not have to be high-tech they just have to cover the mouth.…

It seems strange to me as well. I am in Thailand and, in Bangkok at least, most people wear masks, carry disinfecting hand gel and are very wary about close contact with people and surfaces. Stores like Makro (Thai version of CostCo) have mask-wearing guards at the store entrance that take your temperature and provide hand gel, while cleaning crews wipe down the handles of shopping carts with disinfectant.

To be fair, many people in Bangkok already wore masks because of the pollution. So there is no stigma. But it seems that the Thais started taking Covid-19 serious right away, so maybe that's why Thailand, which was on the leader board in number of infections early on, has reached only 114 confirmed infectinos with 1 death as of yesterday. But only time will tell if all the precautions can slow down the spread since it only takes a few infected but symptomless highly social spreaders to really blow things up. And it looks like that may have happened in the last few days.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#243

Post by MisterTea » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:52 AM UTC

mcsb4 wrote: post #85

I don't understand why we are not trying to interrupt the transmission vectors with masks and hand sanitizer like the Chinese do. They ramped the daily production from 10M to 100M and even advised the use of make-shift masks. The reaction in the west: masks are not protecting 100% and also we don't have any and we are too lazy to produce them, although they are much cheaper than the economic impact covid-19 has. 1. y…

At the risk of sounding stupid, why hasn't anyone been talking about making makeshift masks using clothing or cloth? There's plenty of that in everyone's home. What about a scarf? Fine, it's not N95 but it can't be any less effective than a simple surgical mask that does blocks spittle.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#244

Post by scotty79 » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:54 AM UTC

QuesnayJr wrote: post #241

scotty79 wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Defining jobs as "bullshit" requires imagining you can design large chunks of society from scratch. Or you can change one requirement and suddenly you can delete huge chunk of cruft because it no longer serves any useful function. For the economy this requirement would be "You need to do any job anyone can be persuaded to pay for, to have an excuse to not to starve to death." If you mostly remove this requirement a…

We would collapse back to a subsistence-level economy, but sure.

Why? Is the fear of starvation the only thing that makes people do things?

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#245

Post by 101404 » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:57 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #73

101404 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI could be possible in a closed society, but not if you are open for uncontrolled influx of people from outside your society. Because the offer "get free money" is just too good. There was the choice what to focus on, and we decided we wanted uncontrolled immigration. Fair choice, but the consequence is that UBI won't work anymore.

That's why I've been arguing for a while that open immigration into Europe is unfeasible... EU countries already have forms of UBI, in the sense of strong social safety net, (mostly) free medicine, etc. Open immigration might be easier on the US as it provides less unconditional benefits to its residents.

In fact, the US too once had a better welfare system. Uncontrolled migration is a thing that started in the 70s. Confidentially around the same time the welfare state was destroyed.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#246

Post by hackandtrip » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:58 AM UTC

blueblimp wrote: post #184

There absolutely is an acceptable way out of this. China, South Korea, Taiwan and Singapore, at least, are going to be just fine. They are focused on suppressing and controlling the virus. Once they get few enough imports from travel (presumably by restricting travel from countries where the virus is uncontrolled) and eliminate local transmission, they can resume life-as-usual, apart from being on high alert for impo…

In 5-10 days we'll see if the first EU country to adopt police-state measures will be added to that list. Spain and France are on the right track too, other than Italy.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#247

Post by codeulike » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:58 AM UTC

bsder wrote: post #25

On what basis is anybody predicting a second wave which gets worse ? This seems completely backwards from everything we know. The Spanish Flu accidentally had an inverted forcing function--we sent the worst cases back to their home countries which helped spread the most severe cases rather than the mildest. For Covid-19, the cases most likely to spread are going to be the mildest. The worse you feel, the more likely…

I think they're expecting second wave to be bad due to winter in northern hemisphere, not because of mutations

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#248

Post by dang » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 11:59 AM UTC

knolax wrote: post #225

QuesnayJr wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So calling jobs of many people here "bullshit", like the original comment did, is okay? Apparently so.

This is HackerNews, you can literally advocate for genocide on here and be upvoted but don't you dare be slightly rude to some humanities charlatan.

That's untrue, of course. There's a reason why such shocking and grandiose claims never come with links.

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#249

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 12:00 PM UTC

QuesnayJr wrote: post #188

dang wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal attacks aren't allowed on HN regardless of how stupid someone is or you feel they are. Even if you don't owe David Graeber better (though you do), you definitely owe this community better if you're posting to it. Comments like this add rotational momentum to the downward spiral. It's a pity, because your comment also makes some good points. But adding poison to the commons is more significant. If you'd pleas…

So calling jobs of many people here "bullshit", like the original comment did, is okay? Apparently so.

[deleted]

Re: “I'm not sure there is an acceptable solution to the problem we are facing”

#250

Post by knolax » Mon, Mar 16, 2020, 12:01 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #239

Fr0styMatt88 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The delivery riders, Uber drivers, couriers and postal workers that bring you all that stuff you can order online like food and goods. The people that work maintaining the cables for your ISP (and the technicians in their data centers) that let you work from home in the first place. The people that clean your streets. Ambulance drivers. Taxi drivers. Cooks. The people that collect your garbage. The people…

My point is that each delivery rider can do his job without getting within 6 feet of any other person during his shift. They do come closer but their job can be easily changed so that they don't. Uber drivers are entirely other thing. Maybe driving people should be only allowed if you have a car that has completely separate spaces for the driver and the rider and where spece for the rider can be fully vented and disi…

Have you considered that most normal human beings require social interaction with others to maintain mental health. Solitary confinement is considered torture by many for a reason. In addition, digital forms of social interaction are obviously not subsitutes for physical interaction, especially considering the harmful effects social media and dating apps already have on mental health. I definitely wouldn't want to live in a world where Zuckerberg and co. control all my social interaction with others.