Live data from Hacker News

Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

left.it

491–500 of 740 posts

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#491
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s far from clear how accurate those numbers for Italy and China are. China essentially gave up on testing the general population in Wuhan and their numbers mostly represent the most serious cases. Italy’s infections seem to be mostly centered around the elderly with 40% of infections in the 70+ age range despite 65+ year olds only representing 21.53% of their population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_coronavi…

The WHO has verified China's numbers.

Sure, but they didn't go back in time to test more people.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? I’m in New England tri state and started preparing 28 days ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22339369

Parent presumably means no regular people. I had a similar experience: a month ago I suddenly realized we may need to be isolated at home for up to 2 months. I live in a place where that's actually fairly practical. Except our generator was broken. So I left work, drove to town immediately with the idea that I might be able to get the last generator as they sold out given that everyone else surely would be also buyin…

What city, if I may ask?

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#493
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like making the DNA public, posting statistics daily, sending doctors and resources to other countries to help train ... That kind of not sharing information?

Like pretending it was an unknown disease that showed no sign of person-to-person spread when they'd already sequenced its entire RNA and found cases of it spreading within the community. Like having to be pressured into revealing what little details they did. Like, as I recall, only admitting that it was spreading person-to-person when another country spotted this. That kind of not sharing information.

It is a Novela virus. By definition you don't know anything about it until it is proven.

If you don't know the source (which is still unknown) then you cannot verify that it has spread human to human. (They should have assumed that it did)

Researches outside of China said there was no evidence of human to human transmission.

The first 2 weeks of January were handled rather poorly. But lack of information since then isn't really one of them.

What could China have done that would have made you personally happy?

People automatically distrust anything they say. What other information could they have provided?

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why even have experts in epidemiology if everything is so simple? Just a few rows in excel! Done!

All epidemiologists agree with this. All of them. They've been making public statements to that effect and signing letters reiterating the urgency of the situation. So what are you saying exactly? I don't understand what your point is! I'm agreeing with the epidemiologists. Their maths checks out. It's the same maths as my maths. It's the same maths as everyone's maths : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kas0tIxDvrg Th…

The situation is urgent. Action is warranted.

But snarkily saying "well obviously you understand excel here just type in some numbers" is not productive, specifically when somebody is asking for information from experts. The experts exist. They've done the research. Let's point people to them rather than signal boosting blogs written by engineers.

Obviously it takes more than just "this is how exponentials work" to distinguish between different outcomes and decide on the appropriate action plans.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#495
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we need more panic. Maximum panic please! For a disease that has a 0.5% fatality rate, and the medium death age is over the average life expectancy of one's country. And most scientists believe we can't stop it anyway. Yes, let's burn down the modern world and suspend all civil rights for this.

0.5% is a textbook number, not the sorry-the-hospital-is-full number, which has in some places been closer to 5%.

Well, it's the real number in places that took this virus seriously and have enough case history to develop accurate numbers: China outside of Hubei; South Korea. Likely other east Asian countries that are showing slow growth rates will have similarly low death rates due to not overflowing their hospitals: Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore.

You're completely correct that the rate is more like 3-5% in Iran, Italy, and probably the US at this rate.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The virus was spread at the market. It didn't start at the market. The virus came from bats. The "wildlife market" in question sold raw bat meat. How else would it have gotten there?

Is this known for a fact? I thought the bat angle was more a most likely scenario but not proven.

No, Chinese markets generally don't sell bat meat or eat bats.

They eat lots of animals but bats are not one of them. (I'm sure there is a village in China where they do eat bats. It is a big country.)

The photos you see online of Chinese people eating bats are Tourist in the Pacific.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#497
post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like making the DNA public, posting statistics daily, sending doctors and resources to other countries to help train ... That kind of not sharing information?

Like pretending it was an unknown disease that showed no sign of person-to-person spread when they'd already sequenced its entire RNA and found cases of it spreading within the community. Like having to be pressured into revealing what little details they did. Like, as I recall, only admitting that it was spreading person-to-person when another country spotted this. That kind of not sharing information.

so you mean what happened before JAN/20, now is MAR/14.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You understand wrong and these common arguments can be easily seen to have incorrect arithmetic. There are no countries with mass infections where the fatality rate is plausibly below 1%. Of course, when the health system is overwhelmed, the fatality rate can be 4-5%. But let's just look at a 1% fatality rate to start with. The US population is 327,000,000. Seventy percent of that is 228,900,000. One percent of that…

I don't misunderstand, the main difference is that I was going off an expert estimate that had a half percent fatality rate, and might have had a smaller ratio of infected. If you think that fatality rate is wrong, okay, but that's not on me. > If you decrease the doubling time of a exponential curve, you still have a situation where most of the area, most of the deaths in this case, is in the last double. The closer…

I was going off an expert estimate that had a half percent fatality rate

South Korea has dealt the infection extraordinarily well and they have a %1 fatality rate. But even halving my figures, you get an insane result, an overwhelmed health system and so-forth.

The closer you get to affecting the entire population, the less exponential your curve becomes.

True but that STILL bunches up the deaths a lot, until are at a significant fraction of the population, the growth will exponential (and another point of realism, it's city by city also but health care is also city-by-city). The parabola shaped curves in the "don't flatten the curve" articles are bullshit (but the "don't flatten the curves" actions still should be done. It's just the idea that these will be enough that is untenable).

Edit: And I know well there are experts putting forward these arguments. As far as I tell, this an expression of sleep walking, cognitive dissonance or similar phenomena where people don't notice that their mental tools lead them to untenable approaches since they have relied on these tools for quite a while.

Edit2: I think the standard approach of health departments is "when you go past containment, you go to mitigation" and that's what they have been taught. The thing here is nations quickly discover that the situation cannot be mitigated and they have to go to containment on a region or nation wide basis - the situation in Italy, what the situation is becoming in Spain, what literally the situation should be throughout the entire world.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#499

"Flattening the Curve" is a deadly delusion https://medium.com/@joschabach/flattening-the-curve-is-a-dea... "Flatten the curve" scenario requires r0 to between 1.0 and a small number above 1.0, like 1.1. In other words, it's not happening, you either contain the virus or let it explode.

How much difference is there between the r0 value of 2 and that of 3? Maybe we can't flatten the curve to fit it under the threshold, but we can probably reduce the area above it?

Trevor Bedford had a tweet that indicated a 25% reduction in social contacts results in a 50% reduction in cases after 1 month:

https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1237934525281259521

I think it's very likely that Wuhan or Italy style lockdowns will bring r0 under 1, based on the experience in Wuhan and Italy. That means the disease eventually dies out. Because it's endemic elsewhere in the world, it'll eventually be reintroduced and we get multiple waves, until eventually enough people have had it to generate herd immunity. But each wave starts back at the "containment" phase, with contact tracing and individual isolation, so combining lockdown + those measures + travel restrictions could probably buy enough time for a vaccine.

Re: Open letter from Italy to the international scientific community

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this known for a fact? I thought the bat angle was more a most likely scenario but not proven.

No, Chinese markets generally don't sell bat meat or eat bats. They eat lots of animals but bats are not one of them. (I'm sure there is a village in China where they do eat bats. It is a big country.) The photos you see online of Chinese people eating bats are Tourist in the Pacific.

Correct, Chinese markets generally don't sell such things. I know, I'm Chinese ;)

But this particular part of China does. It's more a subculture derived from one of the minority groups in that province, but it's there.

Post reply on HN