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Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

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Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#151

Post by zackmorris »

droopyEyelids wrote: post #44
babayega2 wrote: post #36

In Africa when you suffer from Malaria they gradually give you Chloroquine, Amodiaquine or even Quinine. From my experience, Quinine is the strongest. I grew up taking those medicines. Man. They knock you out. Your ears are no longer working the first 3 days of taking Quinine. You lose the sense of smell. I guess they slow down the Corona 19 virus. My mom has already sent me Amodiaquine and Quinine here in Italy.

Chloroquine encourages cells to take in zinc, zinc inhibits RdRP, RdRP builds copies of viruses. Thats the mechanism that works in test tubes, but not in humans so far. Pulling Zinc into cells is what determines this hypothetical effect, not to be confused with whatever has the strongest side effects.

There are many papers online giving confidence that 50-80 mg zinc (gluconate) reduces colds by a day or two and 1000-2000+ IU vitamin D3 reduces flu by a day or two. So while I disagree with your conclusion that Chloroquine won't work, I wish I could give you 100 points for making the connection between zinc and RdRP.

Edit: just did a search and your insight led to this study on zinc and Coronavirus from 2010:

https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/j...

Abstract

Increasing the intracellular Zn2+ concentration with zinc-ionophores like pyrithione (PT) can efficiently impair the replication of a variety of RNA viruses, including poliovirus and influenza virus. For some viruses this effect has been attributed to interference with viral polyprotein processing. In this study we demonstrate that the combination of Zn2+ and PT at low concentrations (2 µM Zn2+ and 2 µM PT) inhibits the replication of SARS-coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and equine arteritis virus (EAV) in cell culture. The RNA synthesis of these two distantly related nidoviruses is catalyzed by an RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp), which is the core enzyme of their multiprotein replication and transcription complex (RTC). Using an activity assay for RTCs isolated from cells infected with SARS-CoV or EAV—thus eliminating the need for PT to transport Zn2+ across the plasma membrane—we show that Zn2+ efficiently inhibits the RNA-synthesizing activity of the RTCs of both viruses. Enzymatic studies using recombinant RdRps (SARS-CoV nsp12 and EAV nsp9) purified from E. coli subsequently revealed that Zn2+ directly inhibited the in vitro activity of both nidovirus polymerases. More specifically, Zn2+ was found to block the initiation step of EAV RNA synthesis, whereas in the case of the SARS-CoV RdRp elongation was inhibited and template binding reduced. By chelating Zn2+ with MgEDTA, the inhibitory effect of the divalent cation could be reversed, which provides a novel experimental tool for in vitro studies of the molecular details of nidovirus replication and transcription.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#152

Post by ethbro »

roenxi wrote: post #139
ethbro wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're ignoring the concept of wasted resources. If I buy a test kit, mask, antiviral cocktail, ICU bed for myself, despite being unlikely to need it, and there's a shortage of these resources, I've lessened the sum effectiveness and response. Personally? I assume the average person is an idiot, where nuanced topics that elicit emotional responses are concerned. I'd choose experts doing their best to allocate effecti…

But if the experts are imperfect and people are banned from helping themselves then there really is a problem. I find it darkly ironic that in the US their centralised control of the medical system has royally screwed up the ability of people to access test kits and that is likely to become a rallying point for people who want more centralised control of the medical system. If you do buy those things then you can sha…

> But if the experts are imperfect and people are banned from helping themselves then there really is a problem.

Why?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Perfect isn't a reasonable criteria. More effective than the average person is.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#153

Post by ethbro »

roenxi wrote: post #140
lultimouomo wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be a shortage of ICU beds too. Would you like to allocate them to the best payer as well?

It isn't so much that I think the idea is good as much as there isn't really a way of stopping it and it will get the most resources allocated to the medical sector to set up more beds. If you are relying on the hospital's goodwill and I'm willing to throw down $100k in bribes; I suspect I will mysteriously get myself an ICU bed. It would be better if that money went to the hospital where they can buy more beds than…

It'd be best if the hospital sold VIP bed insurance at some rate, and after you were a confirmed case with severe symptoms you then had priority access to a bed.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#155

Post by lultimouomo »

roenxi wrote: post #140
lultimouomo wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be a shortage of ICU beds too. Would you like to allocate them to the best payer as well?

It isn't so much that I think the idea is good as much as there isn't really a way of stopping it and it will get the most resources allocated to the medical sector to set up more beds. If you are relying on the hospital's goodwill and I'm willing to throw down $100k in bribes; I suspect I will mysteriously get myself an ICU bed. It would be better if that money went to the hospital where they can buy more beds than…

It is really hard to discuss healthcare with someone from the US. We have such a different perspective that it seems we live on different worlds.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#156

Post by cameldrv »

m0zg wrote: post #115
usrusr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes sense that vaccines need more careful assessment before rollout than treatment pharmaceuticals. When the medical infrastructure has reached triage grade saturation, even coin toss treatment candidates could become rational if they can run in parallel to conventional treatment. Exposing the still healthy to a vaccine is an entirely different risk calculation. A reasonably opportunity to throw money at the pro…

We are potentially looking at upwards of a half a million people dead. 13 months makes zero sense no matter how you slice it.

We are potentially looking at half a billion dead.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#157

Post by babayega2 »

gryz wrote: post #144
babayega2 wrote: post #36

In Africa when you suffer from Malaria they gradually give you Chloroquine, Amodiaquine or even Quinine. From my experience, Quinine is the strongest. I grew up taking those medicines. Man. They knock you out. Your ears are no longer working the first 3 days of taking Quinine. You lose the sense of smell. I guess they slow down the Corona 19 virus. My mom has already sent me Amodiaquine and Quinine here in Italy.

I'm wondering why they add quininne to some kinds of Schweppes. And I like the taste btw

Yes. Schweppes is my go to drink.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#158

Post by roenxi »

ethbro wrote: post #152
roenxi wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the experts are imperfect and people are banned from helping themselves then there really is a problem. I find it darkly ironic that in the US their centralised control of the medical system has royally screwed up the ability of people to access test kits and that is likely to become a rallying point for people who want more centralised control of the medical system. If you do buy those things then you can sha…

> But if the experts are imperfect and people are banned from helping themselves then there really is a problem. Why? You're comparing apples and oranges. Perfect isn't a reasonable criteria. More effective than the average person is.

It wasn't a criteria; it was an observation that a system that allows people to help themselves in parallel to the experts is better.

The options aren't "experts hold all the power" or "paniced hoarders have all the power". At the moment, the US has set the dial to experts holding all the power and badly flubbed the response; the obvious solution is a mix of expert- and non-expert- control so that when the experts inevitably muck up it isn't the end of the game.

If people want to allocate a massive % of societies resources to masks, ICU beds and COVID-19 tests they should be able to. At present, they aren't allowed to and the government doesn't seem to be reacting very quickly.

This is classic economics; centralised control and price control where vendors are scared of being dinged for 'price gouging' have immediately resulted in massive shortages. If the government encouraged prices to rise until supplies were only just running out and gave the medical system enough money to buy what they needed in that environment then the situation would resolve much more quickly.

The people making face masks, ventilators, ICU beds and similar should be rolling in so much money from panic buyers that it makes sense to hold emergency reserves for the next crisis. That isn't what is happening, so instead we won't have resources for this crisis or the next one. So called 'panic buying' leads to a very healthy economic response after a month or two; which is where we happen to be vs COVID-19. If we'd had more panic buying earlier we'd be in a better spot now, and rapidly moving to a better spot in a month or two. If we allowed people to allocate resources to testing and hospitals despite the opinions of centralised agencies we'd also be a better spot. People like Bill Gates can fight malaria but they can't fight the CDC.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#159

Post by internet_user »

hackeerTwo wrote: post #148
internet_user wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

chloroquine is not frequently used for autoimmune. At doses used for corona, it is within 50% of margin, or even lower if you are a slow metabolizer of an LD50 dose. plaquenil on the other hand does have a higher therapeutic index. The other major disadvantage is that these drugs can interact with protease inhibitors.

> The other major disadvantage is that these drugs can interact with protease inhibitors What are the possible consequences of this?

Death.

Kaletra, a protease inhibitor, is a combination of two drugs, one of which is a CYP3A4 inhibitor. It is used with some success on coronavirus patients.

Co-administering this with chloroquine 500mg/BID could easily result in chloroquine concentrations well above LD50.

Re: Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19

#160

Post by m0zg »

cameldrv wrote: post #156
m0zg wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are potentially looking at upwards of a half a million people dead. 13 months makes zero sense no matter how you slice it.

We are potentially looking at half a billion dead.

I hope for your own sake that you haven't put any skin in the game over that assumption.
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