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Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

courtlistener.com

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Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#91

Post by Seenso »

anthm1988 wrote: post #11

Scumbag judges should be thrown off for this. Completely bullshit. They held her in prison for a year with no charges and now they want her to pay a quarter million in fines? Fuck off.

> Scumbag judges should be thrown off for this.

> Completely bullshit. They held her in prison for a year with no charges and now they want her to pay a quarter million in fines? Fuck off.

It's not bullshit. Manning was basically obstructing justice by disobeying a court order. If sanctions like this didn't exist, people wouldn't have any incentive follow court orders at all, and the court system would become ineffective and break down.

Also, I'm not sure if the concept of "charges" is even relevant here. Aren't those leveled by a prosecutor? In contempt cases the judge is directly punishing noncompliance with court proceedings.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#92

Post by sjwright »

ohyeshedid wrote: post #83
wayoutthere wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's generally hard for trans people to find employment, period -- and I doubt she has meaningful job skills given her extended imprisonment. That said, trans people rally around our own so she shouldn't have trouble surviving; but whether or not that life is existentially fulfilling is another question... Also, I don't think it's legal to jail someone over unpaid debt (though many states will certainly try). They ca…

While I definitely agree on the trans front, it's also hard for infamous people to find employment, and sometimes impossible for felons. Mixing all of those builds seemingly insurmountable hurdles. Son of Sam laws, and their derivatives, can also prevent her from monetizing her story easily, if at all. You can absolutely be jailed for not paying court ordered fines; that's often how the legal system in the US works f…

The USA: home of the “free” where you can rot in jail because you’re poor.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#93

Post by dragonwriter »

wayoutthere wrote: post #76
ohyeshedid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine it's going to be hard for her to find employment, and if she doesn't pay those fines she'll eventually end up in custody with even more fines.

It's generally hard for trans people to find employment, period -- and I doubt she has meaningful job skills given her extended imprisonment. That said, trans people rally around our own so she shouldn't have trouble surviving; but whether or not that life is existentially fulfilling is another question... Also, I don't think it's legal to jail someone over unpaid debt (though many states will certainly try). They ca…

> It's generally hard for trans people to find employment, period -- and I doubt she has meaningful job skills given her extended imprisonment.

She's a celebrity speaker with a large upper-middle-class fan base, so as long as their interest doesn't go somewhere else she’ll probably do okay.

Of course, if her opponents don't do their part to keep her in the news, the attention will wane.

> Also, I don't think it's legal to jail someone over unpaid debt

It's not. Though it's quite possible she could now be charged with criminal contempt and imprisoned for that.

She could also be jailed for refusing to pay her existing debt (but not for inability to pay.) But note that isn't always an easy line to draw, and a lot of time the latter is dressed up as the former, though with sufficient litigation (which someone has to fund) to challenge it, higher courts may reverse it.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#94

Post by smsm42 »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #79
kick wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

She was a whistleblower, hence everyone with a hint of credibility saying she was. Also, it's customary on HN to point out when you have a conflict of interest. You work for a military contractor & used to work for the government, and probably should disclose that when talking about a subject so closely tied to your work.

Can you help me understand the difference between leaker and whistleblower?

Whistleblower is commonly understood to uncover illegal, criminal or otherwise punishable activity within the organization, that is being hidden. Thus the metaphor of "blowing the whistle" - as in, attracting attention to something untoward going on. However, just releasing secret documents which do not contain the proof of any specific criminal, or otherwise untoward, behavior is not "whistleblowing". For example, Manning released 251,287 US Diplomatic cables and 482,832 Army reports - unless you consider the whole US Diplomatic corps and US Army to be a criminal enterprises, this goes way beyond whistleblowing, as described above.

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#95

Post by [deleted] »

wyldfire wrote: post #88
SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how it works Michael. You don’t “avoid” fines by declaring bankruptcy. You can go through a bankruptcy process and as the debtor you may be forgiven from certain things that the other side will clearly never receive money from, but this isn’t a clean slate trick you just do and walk away from. You basically convert your obligation into distrust. And can “refinance” some debts including judgments against yo…

Fair enough. s/avoid fines/minimize financial impact/

[deleted]

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#97

Post by GordonS »

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #82
wyldfire wrote: post #18

Can Manning avoid the fines by declaring bankruptcy?

That’s not how it works Michael. You don’t “avoid” fines by declaring bankruptcy. You can go through a bankruptcy process and as the debtor you may be forgiven from certain things that the other side will clearly never receive money from, but this isn’t a clean slate trick you just do and walk away from. You basically convert your obligation into distrust. And can “refinance” some debts including judgments against yo…

I have no idea what the implications of bankruptcy are in the US, but it sounds like you are alluding to something serious - aside from no credit, what would Manning face in this scenario?

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#98

Post by ClumsyPilot »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #64
saghm wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't necessarily agree with GP, but don't judges get government salaries?

The government consists of three independent branches of which one is the judiciary. You can’t compare this to a company which is basically a dictatorship.

I am not sure why you are being down voted, this is a perfectly accurate statement - and if viewed from a democratic perspectives, corporates are very dictatorial and mafia-like

Re: Chelsea Manning ordered to be released [pdf]

#99

Post by adventured »

Zenst wrote: post #34
eatbitseveryday wrote: post #7

The last page states she will owe $256,000 in fines and the motion to dismiss them was denied. Really?

With a law degree going to cost you near on $150,000 in student debt, you start to think of limited options and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage has many forms.

Depends entirely on where you go. Your $150,000 figure will get you a law degree from an elite top 20 law school, which will earn you a starting median income as a lawyer of $175,000+ in the private sector.

The median lawyer in the US will earn $4 or $5 million over their law career, at a present $120,000 per year.

The median lawyer from an elite school will earn more than twice that over a career.

$150,000 is a reasonble entry fee considering the immense income potential, which is what you're buying access to.

If you just want a law degree and are not worried about the income potential, you can alternatively go to a cheaper school (public + in-state) and slash the student debt dramatically.

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