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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#61

Post by Herring »

yef wrote: post #58
mechanical_fish wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm truly curious what's at work behind this inability or unwillingness to talk to "the masses", as it were. Class consciousness. The problem has nothing to do with the content of the conversation, but everything to do with the subtext : You're interacting with someone from a completely different social group and you may not even be sure what social cues you want to send, let alone exactly how to send them. What i…

Cool. So, class consciousness is a lot of work. What, exactly, is the benefit?

You get to boast to your friends about that one time you went slumming and actually talked to a plumber.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#62

Post by Alex3917 »

smanek wrote: post #5

That was surprisingly good. Although, I think it paints with too fine a brush sometimes (narrowing its conclusions to the Ivy Leagues). For example, I've definitely noticed a loss of solitude and way too much over specialization too early. A lot of the people I know in Ivy League schools began competing and winning in contests in their chosen field by middle school. I understand that a University would rather admit a…

The easy way to solve any math problem: Reformat it to look like a Google problem set, and then tack it to the corkboards in the hallway.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#63

Post by vlad »

gambling8nt wrote: post #33
smanek wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow ... that just makes me feel bad about myself. Even so, that's very impressive. After looking through, I only see likely solutions to 3 of the 6, and I would still have a fair amount of work to even verify those 3. goes and mopes in the corner

The ability to do these sorts of competitions is a learned skill like any other. Certainly, it is a learned skill that has some relation to research ability within mathematics, but neither tests, nor grades, nor classes are the be-all or end-all of skill measurement tools. If you can solve half the questions, you have enough logical ability to accomplish anything short of beating cperciva at a math competition. The t…

I can't agree that creating something new is more special than being one of the best in chess, math, tennis, or another ranked field.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#64

Post by neodude »

sethg wrote: post #43

Can I get reality checks here from some people who actually attended Ivy-league schools? The author's description of Yale doesn't match my experience with MIT very well, but of course, MIT isn't one of the Ivies.

I go to an Ivy League school, but not Yale - one of the lesser well-known ones. There are certainly people here who have "arrived", and are skating across, partying, until they get their job at Wall Street, but there are some genuinely interesting, 'searcher'-type people here as well. They do expel people here; the school administration is pretty harsh, actually. The academics aren't easy; sure, you can pick easy classes and get your A-, but your major classes are unlikely to not require some serious work, and you have to do a major. There's definitely a sense of severe detachment with the real world, but that may be more about the isolated location than the prestige.

MIT sounds awesome, actually - people in touch with reality! Humble people! People who don't expect it to be easy, and hence complain about things being so hard! Maybe I should have applied, but apparently their financial aid isn't too good.

When I visited Yale, their sense of entitlement was very, very stifling. From anecdotal comparisons, Yale seems way relaxed, academically, as well.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#65

Post by Herring »

xiaoma wrote: post #48
coglethorpe wrote: post #25

One thing I've learned is that there are many people like the plumber mentioned in the article that do better than many Ivy League grads financially. I know one person who has a two-year degree, worked as an electrician, and built his business to where he's one of the wealthiest people I personally know. Another sold his junk yard (which made him good money for years) for over a million. According to the book "The Mi…

The richest guy I've met never had any post-secondary schooling except Hamburger U. He owns 12 McDonald's franchises and each clears about 1.5 million a year.

The plural of anecdote is not data. There will always be exceptions to any rule.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#66

Post by mechanical_fish »

yef wrote: post #58
mechanical_fish wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm truly curious what's at work behind this inability or unwillingness to talk to "the masses", as it were. Class consciousness. The problem has nothing to do with the content of the conversation, but everything to do with the subtext : You're interacting with someone from a completely different social group and you may not even be sure what social cues you want to send, let alone exactly how to send them. What i…

Cool. So, class consciousness is a lot of work. What, exactly, is the benefit?

Ask someone who doesn't have indoor plumbing. :)

But it's not as if socializing is as hard as I make it sound. It's like riding a bicycle -- if you enumerate all the computational tasks involved it sounds like a monumental feat, but kids do it all the time.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#67

Post by Prrometheus »

I've had a few Harvard and Princeton friends, and we related to each other just fine. They were just normal people that had a good education. They had no problem hitting on bartenders, talking about sports, rubbing elbows for jobs, or doing any of the other things that normal people do.

Methinks the English prof likes to be dramatic.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#68

Post by krschultz »

Spyckie wrote: post #42

They didn’t get straight A’s because they couldn’t be bothered to give everything in every class. They concentrated on the ones that meant the most to them or on a single strong extracurricular passion or on projects that had nothing to do with school or even with looking good on a college application. Maybe they just sat in their room, reading a lot and writing in their journal. These are the kinds of kids who are l…

Probably most of the people here, we're the people who are actually interested in learning and doing not getting affirmation (a degree) of our worth. I am going to college, but to actually learn something and not for a piece of paper.

Interestingly I have heard from my friends at Harvard & Columbia that they are disappointed with the kids there, i.e. no one is actually an intellectual and everyone just seems to be legacy.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#69

Post by krschultz »

Herring wrote: post #65
xiaoma wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The richest guy I've met never had any post-secondary schooling except Hamburger U. He owns 12 McDonald's franchises and each clears about 1.5 million a year.

The plural of anecdote is not data. There will always be exceptions to any rule.

But data shows that small business owners are some of the better off in the country. Maybe not as good as the average Ivy League lawyer, but better than most college grads.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#70

Post by anon »

sethg wrote: post #43

Can I get reality checks here from some people who actually attended Ivy-league schools? The author's description of Yale doesn't match my experience with MIT very well, but of course, MIT isn't one of the Ivies.

(submitting anonymously; the login is easily guessable and the account seems inactive)

I don't relate much to the article, but I might be atypical. I never understood what the big deal the Ivy was about. Some random points:

1. There are plenty of insanely smart people who don't take the "standard" career paths. They are the kind that take twice as many classes as everyone else and set the curves in all of them; the school got lucky to have them there. It's hard to not see them working on world-changing problems.

2. There are some people from truly underprivileged backgrounds, who are there by sheer hard work and ability. I met someone like this, who refused to play by the system's rules, and paid dearly because he didn't have the financial cushion. Unfortunately, after he recovered he no longer seems to want to take risks.

3. Classism exists before you enter the gates. There are a large number of students from prep-schools, who carry a whole subculture with them. I sense a kind of disdain from their eyes, and have never gone beyond small talk.

4. The "arrived" appears subtly. There are jokes about neighboring "safety" schools, and even the engineering school (which is easier to get into than the arts). The school of arts is always masturbating to its own name but the engineers don't ever seem to care.

5. I had some friends who were really proud to be there and embodied the school spirit. One time I said, "I find something lacking intellectually in the spirit of [the school]," which was taken with knee-jerk offense.

Without having other places to compare to, I'd say Ivy is some overrated and incomprehensible bullshit marketing. Oh, the computer labs and libraries were nice, but big deal.

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