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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

theamericanscholar.org

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#31
Spot-on.

I used to date a girl who went to Brandeis, which aspires to the Ivy League at every opportunity. In fact, by her admission it was the safety school of many who applied to Ivy League schools but were denied entry in the end. The students essentially had all the (sometimes subconscious) elitism of the Ivy Leaguers, combined with a massive chip on their shoulders due to their supposition that they were Ivy League material that mistakenly ended up at Brandeis. It was fascinating to read this article since she (and many of her colleagues) have many of the exact traits he describes, especially that "I have arrived" mentality.

Great submission!

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#32
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's true but incomplete, in the way that so many written articles on the web are. If you explicitly went up to an Ivy League or top liberal arts student with the above quote, most of them would be disgusted. It's not like people walk around campus all day talking about how everyone else is inferior to them. Someone like that would probably be considered an antisocial boor. But the point about not having anything to…

I dunno. Something doesn't quite add up to me. There are certain topics that all people like to talk about, regardless of how they think. Knowing those topics reveals certain tricks to talking to different people. "Ask the expert", where you compliment someone on their skill or knowledge (plumbing, say) and then ask them for more details, showing genuine interest as they talk. People who have kids or pets are also pr…

So I'm truly curious what's at work behind this inability or unwillingness to talk to "the masses", as it were.

Class consciousness. The problem has nothing to do with the content of the conversation, but everything to do with the subtext: You're interacting with someone from a completely different social group and you may not even be sure what social cues you want to send, let alone exactly how to send them.

What is the proper relationship between you and your plumber? Master and servant? Master and slave? Contract employer and contract employee? Genial boss and long-term employee? Two friends trading with each other? Fellow members of a communal society? Friendly rivalry? Unfriendly rivalry?

How does this change if the plumber turns out to be the cousin of your sister-in-law? If the plumber belongs to your church? If the plumber lives next door?

If the plumber recommends an electrician friend, how important is it to hire that friend? Why is the plumber telling you this tale about the draconian local house inspector -- is this a standard plumber gripe, the plumbing equivalent of complaining about the weather, or is he trying to excuse the fact that his work might not pass inspection? When the plumber asks to be paid up-front, is that a standard practice or could he be planning to get drunk and then skip town?

(Regarding that last one: The books suggest that you never pay construction subcontractors in advance, but only as the work is completed. Unfortunately, the books don't tell you the precise words to use to inform your subcon that, no, you were not born yesterday. That part is up to you, and it's one of those things that they can't teach in an Ivy League class.)

Obviously, the problem of conversation has nothing to do with the topic or your knowledge of it. Thanks to the web, we know that people can happily spend hours discussing topics that they know absolutely nothing about. And there are probably very few topics that you're afraid to discuss with your peers, because you know how to navigate their social world: you know the slang, you know the legends, you know the taboos, you know when you're being insulted and how to give insult in return, and you know how to change the subject. Most importantly, you know the social order. If I log on here and write "Arc is Blub", everyone knows that I'm either issuing a (crude) challenge or being a clueless noob -- the authors of Arc have high social status here. If I write "VBScript is Blub", everyone knows that it's the news.yc/Slashdot/Digg equivalent of talking about the weather. ;)

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#33
post #14
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USAMO problems... Take a look Ok, it's wildly unfair for a Putnam fellow to be looking at these, but since you asked... I think I can see how to solve problem 6, but I'd have to take a few minutes to make sure that my solution works. The other 5 problems took me about 30 seconds each. Hell, I've personally seen a few high school science fair projects that are essentially graduate level work involving genetic engineer…

wow ... that just makes me feel bad about myself. Even so, that's very impressive. After looking through, I only see likely solutions to 3 of the 6, and I would still have a fair amount of work to even verify those 3. goes and mopes in the corner

The ability to do these sorts of competitions is a learned skill like any other. Certainly, it is a learned skill that has some relation to research ability within mathematics, but neither tests, nor grades, nor classes are the be-all or end-all of skill measurement tools. If you can solve half the questions, you have enough logical ability to accomplish anything short of beating cperciva at a math competition. The true mark of skill is to go use that to create something new--anything else is just practice.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#34
>"The political implications should be clear. As John Ruskin told an older elite, grabbing what you can get isn’t any less wicked when you grab it with the power of your brains than with the power of your fists."

That's probably the most profound argument against our society that I have yet seen in a one liner.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#35
post #30

I agree with many things said in this article, but there are many plus sides of "elite" education that shouldn't be overlooked. For instance, I am going to generalize here, but most people I know coming out of these "elite" schools are more driven. My only explanation is that drive is what got them into these school in the first place. And being surrounded by driven and smart people who aren't afraid to challenge con…

I wouldn't say they're more driven, but that they realize that their lot in life has no limits, whereas a standard university grad imposes limits on themselves - their dreams become hobbies, and work becomes work.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#36
post #2

"An elite education gives you the chance to be rich—which is, after all, what we’re talking about—but it takes away the chance not to be. Yet the opportunity not to be rich is one of the greatest opportunities with which young Americans have been blessed." How awful! Those miserable Ivy League kids and all that they miss out on. I never knew they had it so rough. We really should do something for those poor kids goin…

You're missing the point of his comment.

You're also missing the point of life if you continue to hold "being rich" to such a high level.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do far less intelligent people fascinate you? Is it because they know something that you don't, and/or are able to see things in ways that are new to you? Or perhaps they are less concerned about evaluating the level (in anything) of the other party? If I was sitting next to Tiger Woods I would probably talk very little about golf, knowing that we share little in common in that area and would make for a very one-…

If I was sitting next to Tiger Woods I would probably talk very little about golf... If I sat next to Tiger Woods I would talk about the weather and the menu for a minute or two, but then I'd certainly introduce the topic of golf and see what happened. It could be that Tiger loves nothing more than to talk about golf. He is freakishly obsessed with golf , after all. The result might turn out to be a "one-way conversa…

Touche.

I was drawing an analogy though, to pick on cperciva's post. It isn't so hard to see that the contradiction he writes about isn't so much of a contradiction, which is surprising to read from someone who is obviously very intelligent.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#38
"But social intelligence and emotional intelligence and creative ability, to name just three other forms, are not distributed preferentially among the educational elite."

I used to wonder about the creativity bit at my previous startup job. The guy was a serial entrepreneur, very clued in technically, was a great communicator, had a great sense of humour etc, etc, Heck, he even threatened to write code once. Wharton, HBS, Blah, Blah. Like I said technically qualified and clued in as well. But I couldn't understand why he had zero interest in doing anything original and was hell bent on chasing tail lights. All he was interested in was in making the right noises, adding features that would send out the right signals, etc. At that time,the area we were competing wide open and there were several gaps that could have filled in very creatively. Add to that, entirely clueless competition.

That's when I decided that Ivy league folks are not all that creative. They are very tribal in ways that you and I may not realise immediately.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education

#39
post #8
post #5

That was surprisingly good. Although, I think it paints with too fine a brush sometimes (narrowing its conclusions to the Ivy Leagues). For example, I've definitely noticed a loss of solitude and way too much over specialization too early. A lot of the people I know in Ivy League schools began competing and winning in contests in their chosen field by middle school. I understand that a University would rather admit a…

USAMO problems... Take a look Ok, it's wildly unfair for a Putnam fellow to be looking at these, but since you asked... I think I can see how to solve problem 6, but I'd have to take a few minutes to make sure that my solution works. The other 5 problems took me about 30 seconds each. Hell, I've personally seen a few high school science fair projects that are essentially graduate level work involving genetic engineer…

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