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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#131

Post by fenwick67 »

keiferski wrote: post #94
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

People often get hung up on the contemporary Western conception of a higher power, not realizing that the personal, anthropomorphic God is but one flavor of the concept. Scientific laws or forces are in some sense, a "higher power" - clearly we all surrender to the power of gravity every day. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panentheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_god

I've definitely heard this several times that "a higher power in AA can be anything, it can be the fire extinguisher on the wall!".

But if that were really the intent of the program then why do they have a prayer where they ask capital-G-God for help every meeting?

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#132

Post by Waterluvian »

gameswithgo wrote: post #130
Waterluvian wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that they don't even need you to acknowledge a God, just that "there is cosmically something bigger than you and you have no power to govern it" Is that about what you experienced?

even that is just silly. it is true only when the idea devolves into that kind of tautology. I would obviously let it slide if I needed this kind of thing, but it is clearly cruft.

I won't pretend I understand how it works but I think it has to do with accepting that you aren't in control of things, especially your addiction.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#133

Post by athrowaway69 »

sbilstein wrote: post #125

I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind. Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF…

> the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly

This is highly dependent on where you are. I experienced verbal abuse and was made to feel unwelcome at meetings when people found out I'm an atheist. People have told me, verbatim, "You don't belong here if you're denying God".

Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that little cult. I'm doing fine without it.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#134

Post by ArnoVW »

matwood wrote: post #101
NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man adapts the world to himself, therefore all progress is due to the unreasonable man. Yes and no. There is value in recognizing the things that can't be changed (at least at the time). From Musashi: "What a fool I’ve been,” he exclaimed aloud. “I tried to make the water flow where I thought it should and force the dirt to stay where I thought it oug…

The Dutch would like to have a word with him.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#135

Post by olliej »

neonate wrote: post #114
olliej wrote: post #52

I’m unsure about this meta analysis because it’s presumably based on AA publications. The thing is That numerous prior AA publications have treated “falling off the wagon” or missing one of the steps to mean that you weren’t doing AA properly, and so they dont report it as a failure . Essentially they end up getting close to just filtering out all the treatment failures, which inflates their success rate.

Based on the OP and two other articles (see below), I believe your presumption is mistaken. It's hard to say for sure, because the list of studies included in the meta-analysis hasn't been published yet (that I can find). (Edit: it looks like the study is available at https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD... ) But the articles make it clear that this was a rigorous meta-analysis done by qualifi…

Ok, this article itself measures in terms of continuing to attend meetings, etc

Some basic googling found https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr... from 2015, which covers most of my understanding of AA.

The measure of success should be relapse after treatment, but AA doesn't have the concept of stopping, and more importantly does not consider relapse after ceasing attendance to be a failure of their 12 step program.

This ignores the moral corruptness of praying on, and essentially mandating indoctrination, of people in need of help.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#136

Post by lolc »

dang wrote: post #122

We changed the URL from https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-03-alcoholics-anonymous-... to one that gives more information about what's going on here.

I couldn't read the NY article due to paywall. I could read the Medicalxpress link.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#137

Post by athrowaway69 »

elixanchor wrote: post #115

recovering addict here. some words for those who may be struggling. i tried a number of things over many years (life coach, therapy, meditation retreats, ayahuasca, ibogaine, etc). i reached a bottom, and nothing i had tried really worked or stuck. kept relapsing after a few months of sobriety at most. ultimately it was going to AA that i largely credit to my successful transformation into a happy life of sobriety. i…

I had other experiences. The friendships I had in AA were superficial. Once, when I was struggling and needed help and people to talk to, I was completely ignored by the people around me. They didn't want to help the struggling - just to have this toxic positivity that nothing is wrong.

I later moved out of state. I came back to visit family, and went back to a meeting to find out that there were rumors that I had relapsed after I moved and continued using until I was homeless. It was a drama fest. Absolutely ridiculous.

When I moved, the meetings I encountered were extremely hostile to atheists.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#138

Post by sgentle »

openfuture wrote: post #90
towaway wrote: post #24

If you're one of those for whom AA didn't work I would encourage you to look at the The Sinclair Method. It has changed many lives for the better (including mine). https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ https://cthreefoundation.org/

I googled it, seems to be you're supposed to take some drug that makes you stop drinking.

"Some drug that blocks the euphoric effects of drinking" would be more accurate.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#139

Post by plopz »

openfuture wrote: post #90
towaway wrote: post #24

If you're one of those for whom AA didn't work I would encourage you to look at the The Sinclair Method. It has changed many lives for the better (including mine). https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ https://cthreefoundation.org/

I googled it, seems to be you're supposed to take some drug that makes you stop drinking.

From what I understand, you take the drug before the act of drinking and it stops the habit-forming/positive-reinforcement chemical processes.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#140

Post by athrowaway69 »

Waterluvian wrote: post #128
sbilstein wrote: post #125

I didn’t do AA but did AlAnon for children of alcoholics recovering from trauma. Despite what people think, the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly. As a recovery group AlAnon was super useful for getting some closure on the hell my parents dragged me through and just leaving that stuff behind. Edit:I guess I should have qualified that I’ve only done support groups in SF…

My understanding is that they don't even need you to acknowledge a God, just that "there is cosmically something bigger than you and you have no power to govern it" Is that about what you experienced?

In my experience, some meetings don't care much about that. Others have told me if I'm not into the whole Christian God thing that I'm not welcome.
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