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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#51

Post by shoes_for_thee »

simion314 wrote: post #39
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

>The point is surrendering to something "bigger" than yourself. Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives. There are people that can just say "from tomorrow I will believe in God/afterlife/spirits etc. It would be so easy to live knowing that your loved ones are not gone or that if you are good enough your problems will be solved soon but for some people(like me) it is like trying to convince me that 2+2=5 a…

Sometimes I think that spirituality is something people either "get" or they don't.

For me, to consider the very fact of existence rather than non-existence, the beauty and order of it, the people around me who have somehow manifested as conscious beings from chaos... (and on and on)...

none of those things require a supreme being or intelligent creator, but the sense of awe after giving sufficient consideration is difficult to differentiate from feeling god.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#52

Post by olliej »

I’m unsure about this meta analysis because it’s presumably based on AA publications.

The thing is That numerous prior AA publications have treated “falling off the wagon” or missing one of the steps to mean that you weren’t doing AA properly, and so they dont report it as a failure.

Essentially they end up getting close to just filtering out all the treatment failures, which inflates their success rate.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#53

Post by snurfer »

metabagel wrote: post #49
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #38

Last I google-researched, AA-style treatment was really the ONLY effective treatment against long term dependence/addiction. Psychotherapy and others almost always failed. It probably is related to the social network effect that was described with Vietnam vets dumping heroin addiction when they returned home to their old social groups that didn't accomodate the behavior. AA et al provide a new social group that activ…

For those who AA doesn’t work for, I would recommend psychotherapy, joining a meditation group (for the social benefit, not for counseling), and practicing regular meditation, particularly loving-kindness meditation, which you can google and is easy to practice. A good psychotherapist can help you learn how to talk to yourself in a more supportive way. Meditation can help you to break out of your mental ruts and paus…

Yin Yoga is pretty good, too.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#54

Post by adamisom »

shoes_for_thee wrote: post #51
simion314 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The point is surrendering to something "bigger" than yourself. Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives. There are people that can just say "from tomorrow I will believe in God/afterlife/spirits etc. It would be so easy to live knowing that your loved ones are not gone or that if you are good enough your problems will be solved soon but for some people(like me) it is like trying to convince me that 2+2=5 a…

Sometimes I think that spirituality is something people either "get" or they don't. For me, to consider the very fact of existence rather than non-existence, the beauty and order of it, the people around me who have somehow manifested as conscious beings from chaos... (and on and on)... none of those things require a supreme being or intelligent creator, but the sense of awe after giving sufficient consideration is d…

Carl Sagan and his fans (me among them) understand your sense of awe. I do think it's important not to forget that when you lose religion. I also think it's important, as Sagan probably did, for the secular world--for humanity--to reclaim it as part of being human (whether you call it spiritual or not).

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#55

Post by snurfer »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #38

Last I google-researched, AA-style treatment was really the ONLY effective treatment against long term dependence/addiction. Psychotherapy and others almost always failed. It probably is related to the social network effect that was described with Vietnam vets dumping heroin addiction when they returned home to their old social groups that didn't accomodate the behavior. AA et al provide a new social group that activ…

Rational Recovery, an alternative to group therapy, has been around for 30+ years.

https://rational.org/

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#56

Post by reggieband »

beefok wrote: post #43
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :) When you contrast it to any other type of 'militant', there is typically violence involved.. However, personally, I think the closest thing I could believe in is a "best self". Not that anyone chooses their beliefs, but the rest would be pretty hard to digest for any good reasons. Honestly, I just think giving up on the idea that you can do this by you…

> Please describe a 'militant' atheist perspective unironically. :)

I think of militant as unyielding and confrontational. This isn't some pejorative assigned to others, it is a term forwarded and embraced by proponents of that ideology. For an unironic perspective I suggest this New Yorker article "All Scientists Should be Militant Atheists" by Lawrence Krauss [1].

1. https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/all-scientists-shou...

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#57

Post by adamisom »

olliej wrote: post #52

I’m unsure about this meta analysis because it’s presumably based on AA publications. The thing is That numerous prior AA publications have treated “falling off the wagon” or missing one of the steps to mean that you weren’t doing AA properly, and so they dont report it as a failure . Essentially they end up getting close to just filtering out all the treatment failures, which inflates their success rate.

That's nuts. This should be the top comment.

And here I was just thinking the finding makes sense to the extent that AA is (probably) more involved than (most) psychotherapy. To extend my point, I think when people consider the benefits of things like therapy, that--because their attention is on the therapy at that moment--they don't realize that if therapy is 1 hour a week, there are 167 hours left in the person's week that can either help or harm them with respect to their goal.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#58

Post by Quequau »

towaway wrote: post #24

If you're one of those for whom AA didn't work I would encourage you to look at the The Sinclair Method. It has changed many lives for the better (including mine). https://www.reddit.com/r/Alcoholism_Medication/ https://cthreefoundation.org/

This is how I quit and it's a profoundly disappointing and discouraging thing that this is not more broadly known. I should have quit 15-20 years before I actually did and had I known about The Sinclair Method the first time I was subjected to AA and did that instead, I'm convinced I would have been able to quit then. However, I wasn't aware of this and continued drinking for another 17 years.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#59

Post by riyadparvez »

mullingitover wrote: post #44

Trying to find sources to confirm this, but I've repeatedly heard that cognitive behavioral therapy dominated AA in effectiveness. I would take this more as an indictment of psychotherapy than an endorsement of AA. Edit: I found a review of Project MATCH[1]. > Background > Project MATCH was the largest and most expensive alcoholism treatment trial ever conducted. The results were disappointing. There were essentially…

As someone who is been in psychotherapy and an arm-chair psychology enthusiast, not every kind of therapy will be effective for everyone. This also goes for psychiatric medications.

CBT is often oversold as a cure for every kind of mental health issues. New meta-research has found that the effectiveness of CBT has been decreasing for quite some time and long-term effectiveness of CBT is arguable.

Regarding effectiveness of AA, I think it makes sense. Lot of people with addiction suffer from childhood trauma, emtional neglect, and abandonment. In psychological term it is called attachment injury. A community where you are not shamed, validated, understood, and accepted would give corrective emotional experience, which would in turn heal your attachment trauma. I've heard this phrase somewhere: "what cures people in therapy is love". So it's not surprising that finding a community where you are accepted would help you treat your addiction.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#60

Post by snurfer »

alexilliamson wrote: post #31
snurfer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who lack willpower and who suffer the continual moral failing of their dependency on alcohol, AA is an option.

It's also great for people who have alcoholism

Almost certainly, anyone who calls themselves "alcoholic" should probably give Alcoholics Anonymous a try. However, alcoholism is not a disease and AA isn't the only answer.
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