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Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

nytimes.com

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Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#61

Post by ragona »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #26
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

> You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden That's quite cheeky. Telling people to believe in a "higher power" simply translates into the gods in the mainstream religion in the society they live in.

Huh? I’ve known plenty of AA members who found the program very helpful and didn’t believe in anything even resembling a mainstream deity.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#62

Post by egypturnash »

eeZah7Ux wrote: post #26
saberience wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a major understanding of this part of AA. This DOES NOT mean acknowledging that you believe there is a god. The concept of a "higher power" can mean anything you want it to mean. You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden, or even some aspect of your "best self." You could imagine it to be the spirits of your ancestors or even something like the energy of t…

> You can imagine your higher power is Gandalf, Sauron, elves at the bottom of the garden That's quite cheeky. Telling people to believe in a "higher power" simply translates into the gods in the mainstream religion in the society they live in.

There are people who have gotten “Jedi” on the official lists of religion. I would presume that one of them going through AA would simply surrender to the Force. Seriously or ha-ha-only-seriously, it doesn’t matter.

Sure, you can surrender to the top name of whatever religion dominates your surroundings. Or you can surrender to the top name of the one your parents raised you in counter to the surroundings, or the top name of the one you found yourself drawn to as you grown up.

Or you could surrender to the Invisible Pink Unicorn, blessed be Her invisible mane. Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster or anything else made up to mock the idea of religion. I wouldn’t recommend surrendering to Cthulhu for healing via the AA but if you think that sounds like a good idea then go for it.

Whichever deity works. If all you know is the default for your culture and you’re not down with that one, then it’s time to do some research.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#63

Post by luckylion »

riyadparvez wrote: post #59
mullingitover wrote: post #44

Trying to find sources to confirm this, but I've repeatedly heard that cognitive behavioral therapy dominated AA in effectiveness. I would take this more as an indictment of psychotherapy than an endorsement of AA. Edit: I found a review of Project MATCH[1]. > Background > Project MATCH was the largest and most expensive alcoholism treatment trial ever conducted. The results were disappointing. There were essentially…

As someone who is been in psychotherapy and an arm-chair psychology enthusiast, not every kind of therapy will be effective for everyone. This also goes for psychiatric medications. CBT is often oversold as a cure for every kind of mental health issues. New meta-research has found that the effectiveness of CBT has been decreasing for quite some time and long-term effectiveness of CBT is arguable. Regarding effectiven…

> not every kind of therapy will be effective for everyone

That's pretty problematic though, isn't it? At some point, you're dropping below placebos, not everything works for everyone, but should we still put weight on it? Homeopathy and intense praying works for some as well, but we don't say "I guess it's not effective for everyone". Psychotherapy (not the behavior therapy kind) gets a pass for some reason.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#64

Post by grabbalacious »

Outsider's uninformed opinion: if you attend AA then regardless of any official narrative or agenda this means you're spending important time with people who (a) used to drink, and (b) don't drink any more. Their example plus hearing what they've got to say seems like an excellent approach.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#65

Post by jerf »

snurfer wrote: post #50
sfkdjf9j3j wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Modern medicine treats alcohol abuse and addiction as similar to other chemical dependencies. I don't know what to tell you. Your callous dismissal of the seriousness of alcohol dependency is an ideological position, not one based on reason or science.

Excuse me, but I offer a rational alternative to the religion of Alcoholics Anonymous. Would you say AA is the bastion of reason and science?

No, you didn't. First you insulted, then you corrected someone, now you're trying to raise a flamewar smokescreen. Please just stop.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#66

Post by simion314 »

shoes_for_thee wrote: post #51
simion314 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The point is surrendering to something "bigger" than yourself. Don't get tied up in militant atheist perspectives. There are people that can just say "from tomorrow I will believe in God/afterlife/spirits etc. It would be so easy to live knowing that your loved ones are not gone or that if you are good enough your problems will be solved soon but for some people(like me) it is like trying to convince me that 2+2=5 a…

Sometimes I think that spirituality is something people either "get" or they don't. For me, to consider the very fact of existence rather than non-existence, the beauty and order of it, the people around me who have somehow manifested as conscious beings from chaos... (and on and on)... none of those things require a supreme being or intelligent creator, but the sense of awe after giving sufficient consideration is d…

I agree the fact we exist and we can consider our existence is something special but still it won't help me with believing that things will be better tomorrow or that there is an afterlife.

when I was a child I wanted to become a priest, I read all the books and I was a believer, the giant mistake the priests and religion teacher made is to be dogmatic, like to still consider that "creation happened as it is said in Bible, that the world is 5000 years old and avoiding though questions with a story where X did Y and then God done Z. I seen on YT interview with smarter clerics that are not as dogmatic and acknowledged some issues and if my teachers were like that maybe I would have kept my faith.

At least the priest/teachers are paid from taxes to tell our children stories and contradict science /s (this is in Romania btw)

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#67

Post by pmoriarty »

Little known fact:

Bill Wilson[1], co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous, believed LSD could help alcoholics achieve a "spiritual experience" that was crucial to them attaining sobriety[2] (incidentally, that a spiritual experience could help alcoholics was an idea he got from Carl Jung[3]). Wilson's own experiences with LSD are discussed in detail here: [4]

In the 50's and 60's there was research in to using LSD to treat alcoholism, with promising results:

"Osmond treated more than 700 chronically alcoholic patients with LSD and ended up with around a 50 percent overall success rate. One of Osmond's most compelling studies took place in the late 1950s with a cohort of subjects from the group Alcoholics Anonymous. This cohort was comprised of individuals that had failed the famous 12-step program, and again Osmond hit his 50 percent success rate, this time with a 12-month follow-up period."[5]

In 2012 a meta-analysis of studies with a total of 536 participants found "evidence for a beneficial effect of LSD on alcohol misuse".[6]

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_W.

[2] - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/aug/23/lsd-help-alc...

[3] - http://barefootsworld.org/wilsonletter.html

[4] - https://aaagnostica.org/2015/05/10/bill-wilsons-experience-w...

[5] - [6] - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22406913

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#68

Post by kwhitefoot »

This is probably not going to be a popular thing to say but total abstinence isn't necessarily the goal that everyone who has a drinking problem is aiming for.

Just as those who over eat want to control their appetite for food rather than simply stop eating so do some who have a drink or drugs problem. In many cases the drink is a symptom not a cause. Remove the cause and for some people at least the drink problem will subside.

I worry also that the AA members are also a subset of those who have a drinking problem, are we sure that they are a comparable subset to those who took other paths? How do the studies account for people who drop out of either AA or some other program and did the studies follow up years later to find out if people had fallen back into addiction?

The article was a bit light on details.

And lastly the article mentions relative efficacy but doesn't say anything about how efficacious any of the programs were leaving me wondering if any of them are worthwhile.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#69

Post by jl2718 »

alexilliamson wrote: post #31
snurfer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who lack willpower and who suffer the continual moral failing of their dependency on alcohol, AA is an option.

It's also great for people who have alcoholism

I don’t agree with either of these characterizations. It is not a disease because the cure comes instantly by a decision from within. It is not a moral failing because the substance subverts moral reasoning. I am not religious, but I find the religious view to be accurate: a good soul fallen, that needs to be saved.

Source: a lifetime of addiction in my family and loved ones. Some made it out. That transformation is astonishing. Others didn’t. When you think it can’t get any worse, it can. It’s made me realize that we are all addicts. There is always some void in life that becomes deeper by the behavior used to fill it. Everybody.

Re: Alcoholics Anonymous vs. other approaches: the evidence is now in

#70

Post by gadders »

NicolasGorden wrote: post #13

I completely agree with the message that people-helping people is super effective. But I'd like to point out that one of the core tenants of AA is to surrender to a higher power. I'm not advocating in favor of religion. But rather highlighting that maybe people who accept 'surrender' of their own will are more likely to get better. There's something to the concept that seems powerful. Anecdotally, I've known someone…

>> Anecdotally, I've known someone who used to be stressed out and controlling. Last time I saw him he was not so stressed. He said his life changed once he surrendered and accepted his destiny. He didn't go religious or anything, just 'accepted' his fate.

The stoics called this "Amor Fati" - Love of Fate (which admittedly is a maybe a step beyond your friend): https://dailystoic.com/amor-fati-love-of-fate/

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