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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#291

Post by root_axis »

lmm wrote: post #272
root_axis wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is absolutely a free choice, social pressure isn't the law.

"The law" is ultimately just a particular form of social pressure, there's nothing magic about it. If someone is forced into bankruptcy because a twitter campaign got them fired, that's practically the same consequence as being forced into bankruptcy because a court imposed a large fine.

> "The law" is ultimately just a particular form of social pressure, there's nothing magic about it.

This is wrong. The "magic" (i.e. the thing that distinguishes it from social pressure) is threat of violence or imprisonment from the state if you don't comply with the law.

> If someone is forced into bankruptcy because a twitter campaign got them fired, that's practically the same consequence

No it isn't. You are employed at-will by your employer, they are free to fire you if they decide they want to do that, but they don't have to. If the business makes the decision to fire you based on public pressure that's their right unless you're making an argument for stricter labor laws (I suspect you aren't).

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#292

Post by pjc50 »

core-questions wrote: post #102
pjc50 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maaybe , but you'd have to follow the "safe, sane and consensual" rules. Explain in advance that that's what you're doing. Ensure that everyone is on board. And not do it in public, because the public aren't consenting. And if it rose to public prominence while remaining a men only club, that would probably cease to be OK. (It remains unclear to me what the long term psychological effects of participating in a commun…

> but you'd have to follow the "safe, sane and consensual" rules. Those rules are entirely arbitrary and were made up as part of this new Code of Conduct bullshit. They didn't used to exist and plenty of productive developers contributed plenty of useful code. You're arguing the rules matter from within the context of the rules; that's begging the question. > long term psychological effects of participating in a comm…

99% of people don't participate in open source, and much of the behavior we're talking about wouldn't be tolerated at any Western employer (except among the most senior untouchables).

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#293

Post by zozbot234 »

usrusr wrote: post #273
nemo44x wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a power grab and has gone on forever in many forms. Redefine language and classify certain language as non-compliant under the guise of whatever it is that works to your advantage. Then use this to create systemic policy to dictate towards your goals and ultimately control whatever resource it is you were trying to colonize or acquire. Language is power and can greatly influence and define what masses of pe…

You make it sound like a deliberate strategy. But even if it was playing out that way (I refuse to be the judge about that, fortunately I'd never be). I'd take it as a given that this "takeover" is a pure chance outcome, even if repeated, kind of like how Columbus never intended to discover America. Organizations like the FSF or any open source project are just not plausible targets for an elaborate takeover scheme,…

The Cultural Revolution in Maoist China was a deliberate strategy. The whole Gramscian idea of attaining "hegemony" in a "long march through the institutions" is just as goal-oriented, though success of the core idea is far more mixed than is generally acknowledged.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#294

Post by [deleted] »

aeturnum wrote: post #10

From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned: http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.... I'm not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don't think I'd wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose? Edit: replaced plorkyeran's account link with their post. I also now notice othe…

[deleted]

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#295

Post by joe_the_user »

derefr wrote: post #254
joe_the_user wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? The thing about this hypothetical is that it's wildly different from what Linus Torvald mailing list abuse winds up being. The approach is "we have a culture of anything goes, not because anyone likes abuse, but it's best way to get…

Linux might be where many people's minds go by default in this comparison, but it's not the example I meant to conjure here. I'm talking more about, for example, the FOSS communities around game-console homebrew tooling, where any given project is usually an outgrowth of some private Discord somewhere—some pre-existing group of friends—and so everyone on the project calls one-another names in the [public] GitHub issu…

The thing with semi-abusive, semi-fun-loving group of friends and the perhaps multitude of kind of ambiguously abusive relationships one might notice small circles of people, is that these seldom scale to millions of people nor do they scale to long periods of time.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#296

Post by meowface »

asveikau wrote: post #264
nemo44x wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a power grab and has gone on forever in many forms. Redefine language and classify certain language as non-compliant under the guise of whatever it is that works to your advantage. Then use this to create systemic policy to dictate towards your goals and ultimately control whatever resource it is you were trying to colonize or acquire. Language is power and can greatly influence and define what masses of pe…

Why do you consider it a power grab sooner than, say, people acting in good faith who really believe in their stated values?

It can be both. Many power grabs and coups are performed by people with a good faith belief that they're right and the current administration is wrong or dangerous.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#297

Post by root_axis »

derefr wrote: post #174
root_axis wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Society is very diverse, it's not that realistic to change society such that you stamp out the ideas you disagree with, it's much more feasible and effective to use the power you have within your own community to stand up to ideas you disagree with.

I mean, the whole point of the Abilene paradox is that it's something that happens when everyone's level of regret they'd have from doing the thing doesn't exceed their level of regret from social approbation if it turns out everyone else did want to do the thing and they had to be the one to argue against it. So in the end everyone loses a little utility—rather than everyone expecting to lose a lot of utility (in th…

People will have opinions about things, it's not feasible to eliminate the possibility of exposure to ideas you disagree with. If the Abilene paradox is so crippling that it precludes the possibility of expressing your own opinions within your own community then what hope is there to "change societal expectations"?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#298

Post by asveikau »

meowface wrote: post #296
asveikau wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider it a power grab sooner than, say, people acting in good faith who really believe in their stated values?

It can be both. Many power grabs and coups are performed by people with a good faith belief that they're right and the current administration is wrong or dangerous.

Yet I feel like "power grab" is a loaded description that implies such a "grab" is unjustified and that the grabber is primarily interested in power for power's sake, not for otherwise justifiable, altruistic, or benevolent reasons.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#299

Post by joshuamorton »

downerending wrote: post #284
joshuamorton wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're under no obligation to do anything. Individuals are simply exercising their own right not to engage based on their own experience. From other comments, you seem to be drawing a distinction between "social pressure" and "individual choices". Can you explain when one becomes the other?

I think we all know a mob when we see one.

Clearly not, you'll need to be a bit more convincing than "I know it when I see it."

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#300

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

pjc50 wrote: post #292
core-questions wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but you'd have to follow the "safe, sane and consensual" rules. Those rules are entirely arbitrary and were made up as part of this new Code of Conduct bullshit. They didn't used to exist and plenty of productive developers contributed plenty of useful code. You're arguing the rules matter from within the context of the rules; that's begging the question. > long term psychological effects of participating in a comm…

99% of people don't participate in open source, and much of the behavior we're talking about wouldn't be tolerated at any Western employer (except among the most senior untouchables).

I don't think that bolsters your argument. Having been around at its beginnings, FOSS itself wouldn't have been tolerated at any Western employer at that time. Consider that it was the rebels who didn't care about conforming or what was good for business/PR that made FOSS what it is today.
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