Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

lunduke.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

241–250 of 447 posts

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#241

Post by Uhhrrr »

The enthusiasm for shaming in this mail from the thread makes my stomach turn. They seem to be either blissfully unaware or malevolently aware that it would lead to more marginalization, not less: https://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists...

"This special exception makes clear who the community considers a bad actor and initially imposes greater obligations on them than anyone else. [....] As in the Persona non Grata Preamble, this special exception serves as a clear statement on the community's view on who is welcome in their community. Additionally, if the bad actor wants to redistribute, they have to distribute the license shaming them."

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#242

Post by m0zg »

pessimizer wrote: post #211
m0zg wrote: post #96

And that's why political activist infestations should be dealt with quickly and forcefully, before they get a chance to fester and take over the host. ESR: "The effect – the intended effect – is to diminish the prestige and autonomy of people who do the work – write the code – in favor of self-appointed tone-policers. In the process, the freedom to speak necessary truths even when the manner in which they are express…

The OSI is a political activist organization.

Only if you equate open source advocacy with political activism. In fact their "about" page states: "Much of OSI’s advocacy takes the form of quiet persuasion rather than public activism", and the whole thing was founded in part because the term "free software" seemed too politically charged to the founders, both of which, BTW, have been ejected.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#243

Post by Lazare »

core-questions wrote: post #226
Lazare wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know exactly who ESR is, have read his blog off and on over the years, and agree with him on many political points. However, that's still a ridiculous email, and inappropriate for any context where grownups are trying to have a serious conversation about adult matters. First off, it's unprofessional. But even beyond that, the email is either intended to persuade through facts and reasoned argument, or bully though…

> unprofessional This isn't a profession. It's a volunteer effort. ESR has spent enough time talking about this now that expecting every single email he writes to include a total re-encapsulation of the entire effort is ridiculous. Of course, this is why arguing with these sorts of people is such a pain; they forget everything you've ever said, and any point ever admitted-to is forgotten the next day like as though n…

> This isn't a profession. It's a volunteer effort.

I would suggest that is a distinction without a (in this context) relevant difference.

Also, you didn't address my other, larger point.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#244

Post by pdonis »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #135
LiNeXT wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What relevance does his personal opinion on homosexuality, expressed on his personal blog, have to his participation in an OSI mailing list about open source licensing?

It spills over. He is fighting against codes of conducts and diversity because he thinks its about normalizing homosexuality and he thinks that normalizing homosexuality is the first step towards normalizing pedophilia.

> He is fighting against codes of conducts and diversity because he thinks its about normalizing homosexuality

No, he's not. He's fighting against codes of conduct because he sees them as a Leftist attempt to gain control of open source software as an institution and subvert it, in other words, a Leftist power grab. This is not by any means the first such Leftist takeover in history. You can agree or disagree about his reading of what's going on, but either way it has nothing to do with normalizing homosexuality.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#245

Post by Trombone12 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #118
sascha_sl wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not exactly sure where you draw the difference. Minority opinions are sometimes helpful in creating products that work for everyone (my favorite example here being a hand dryer that did not recognize black skin). It can be useful to amplify such voices. If you want to call that "SJWism", fine. But this is literally just a call for civility, recognizing that many people may not want to subject themselves to this k…

> You can ALWAYS voice your concerns in a productive manner in the "meritocratic" ideal. You, and perhaps most people believe that, but there's a vocal minority who considers even the concept of meritocracy as an aspirational ideal to be offensive. cf. Github having to throw out their dumb pompous rug: https://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug/

Pretty clearly the deal there is that false claims that a place is meritocratic makes the actual injustices worse.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#246

Post by gvb »

SftwrSvior81 wrote: post #145
aeturnum wrote: post #10

From the previous discussion, plorkyeran[1] found the email that they suspect got ESR banned: http://lists.opensource.org/pipermail/license-discuss_lists.... I'm not familiar with the culture or standards of the OSI but I don't think I'd wanna participate in a community where this kind of engagement is normal, so good for them I suppose? Edit: replaced plorkyeran's account link with their post. I also now notice othe…

What does ESD stand for? I did a quick google search but there were too many seemingly irrelevant hits.

Looks like "Ethical Source Definition" defining "ethical open source" analogous to "Open Source Definition" defining "open source" license characteristics.

https://ethicalsource.dev/definition/

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#247

Post by SEJeff »

kazinator wrote: post #197
DuskStar wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, if that's what it took to drive corporate adoption of open source software, it was almost certainly worth it... Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches? Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary.

> Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches? Not only can I imagine, but I lived in that world. > Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary. Linux was excellent before ... Google even existed.

One of the big breakout moments for Linux was when IBM added SMP support. Before then it was never useful for anything "serious" or commercial generally speaking.

Linux was a really nice hobby before then.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#248

Post by api »

kazinator wrote: post #197
DuskStar wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, if that's what it took to drive corporate adoption of open source software, it was almost certainly worth it... Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches? Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary.

> Can you imagine Linux in a world where companies like Google don't contribute kernel patches? Not only can I imagine, but I lived in that world. > Because I think that would look like a world where all the best OSes were proprietary. Linux was excellent before ... Google even existed.

There's a good chance Google wouldn't exist without it.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#249

Post by lmm »

root_axis wrote: post #91
derefr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

Any individual or group can do whatever they want in the OSS world, nobody is stopping anyone from being a jerk except those communities that voluntarily self-govern in such a fashion that excludes jerks. Where's the problem?

Groups that don't have a code of conduct (which in my experience increases rather than reduces the amount of jerkdom) get pressurised to add one. Conferences that don't have one attract twitter harassment campaigns. It's not really a free choice.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#250

Post by erulabs »

When I was 16 or so I made my very first patch to the KDE project. It was really awful code - and I was told to kill myself due to its quality. There are absolutely bullies in FOSS - but I swapped to Gnome and called it a day. I was pretty upset, but a few months later Postfix accepted a patch so I spent 3 years as a mail administrator. My issue here is the lack of transparency - just tell us why he was banned. His essay on social politics seems non-Germaine - it wasn’t aimed at anyone. If he directly insulted harassed or threatened a contributor - absolutely kick him out - but just copy paste the text! It’s a fairly low bar to hit for those given the authority to ban someone from their own creation.
Post reply on HN