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Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

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Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#91

Post by root_axis »

derefr wrote: post #47
sneak wrote: post #24

I’m torn on this. On one hand, esr has a point. There is a credible argument that cancel culture has gone too far, and that expressing disagreement itself is now becoming dangerous as those with whom you disagree will take the opportunity to play victim and attempt to defame you simply for disagreeing. Identity politics along these lines have lately become unproductive and distracting. I generally don’t participate i…

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

Any individual or group can do whatever they want in the OSS world, nobody is stopping anyone from being a jerk except those communities that voluntarily self-govern in such a fashion that excludes jerks. Where's the problem?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#92

Post by core-questions »

geofft wrote: post #66
derefr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real jerks in f/oss are also a real problem. f/oss groups should ABSOLUTELY eject bullies: not for wrongthink, but for bullying. We must be kind. So, is it illegitimate, then, to have a FOSS project with an intentional/cultivated "culture of abuse", where the idea is that nobody is kind to anybody and that's how everybody likes it? Sort of a... "BSDM but we build something along the way" thing? (For example, pictur…

It's absolutely legitimate to have a F/OSS-licensed project with such a culture. But it shouldn't count as part of the F/OSS movement(s), any more than an MIT-licensed website about how you need to pay SCO for Linux licenses would be part of the movement.

> But it shouldn't count as part of the F/OSS movement

Why not? If the end result is a high quality piece of open source software, why do I need to care about the politics or behavior of the developers?

The only reason I can think of would be from a risk-assessment standpoint, i.e. is another censorious asshole going to waltz on in and damage the team that produces this product so that it dies and becomes orphaned.

Why anyone would want to contribute to a project they don't like the developers of is beyond me; either fork it or go do something else. It's not a requirement. This is not your livelihood, for the most part. Just walk away.

Maybe if censorious assholes could just step the fuck off, and let people be, this would be less of a problem. As far as I can see, they've caused far more problems and far more discontent than anyone posting aggressively has ever done.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#93

Post by sam_lowry_ »

downerending wrote: post #71
zozbot234 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "toxic loonytoon" part, referencing a prominent candidate to the OSI board? I mean, surely we can all have our own opinions about any candidate, but the optics aren't that good.

I think it's a reference to one of the people pushing very hard on spreading CoCs everywhere. Can't recall the name. (Corin?) Reading some of that person's tweets, though, left me with a very bad impression. Anyway, search and form your own opinion.

Any idea who that may be?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#94

Post by kazinator »

What's going on in FOSS these days is that the world of large, multi-national corporations, as well as governments, has become dependent on FOSS for critical infrastructure.

These players want volunteers to do free work for them, but otherwise to be in control.

They can't have some scruffy old ultra-libertarians who speak their mind running the projects; they want weaklings and pushovers.

To be in control means being able to inject dubious changes into code that are against the interests of the public. Crypto Backdoors, DRM, vendor-specific crap, subversions of open standards, you name it.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#95

Post by stonogo »

silverreads wrote: post #5

Anyone unaffiliated with a large commercial organization is being systematically rooted out and destroyed in the free software community. I'm honestly ashamed to be a part of this community right now. ESR has done SO MUCH for us, but doesn't align with a position some wishy washy corporate PR departments have OK'd, so he's OUT. There is no "be nice" rule in life, and doubly so for corporate America. This is disgracef…

> ESR has done SO MUCH for us,

I think I used fetchmail once. Did you have something else in mind?

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#96

Post by m0zg »

And that's why political activist infestations should be dealt with quickly and forcefully, before they get a chance to fester and take over the host.

ESR: "The effect – the intended effect – is to diminish the prestige and autonomy of people who do the work – write the code – in favor of self-appointed tone-policers. In the process, the freedom to speak necessary truths even when the manner in which they are expressed is unpleasant is being gradually strangled."

Which is what happened in the end.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#97

Post by shiado »

The open source community might want to think long and hard about ceding control to groups of people that proudly list their mental illnesses in their twitter bios (like actually, they really fucking do this). I predict a serious split in open source culture once people realize they have been played by narcissists seeking power.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#98

Post by kazinator »

geofft wrote: post #70
nrclark wrote: post #59

I've read a bunch of ESR's writing, and I disagree with him on an awful lot of political and social issues. Chances are we wouldn't get along very well. Tone-policing, cancel culture, and identity politics are a real problem though, and it seems like they're getting out of hand. This is happening everywhere though - it's not unique to the open source world at all. I don't know what the right solution is. ESR and RMS…

We also don't know what the movement would look like today if it weren't dominated by their personalities (and their personality conflicts) in its formative days. It's pretty clear that a lot of people were interested in the ideals behind their movements and contributed in massive ways to the success of the movements - it's not clear that either of them were needed to get the movement off the ground (see also, Great…

What it would look like: an army of docile microserfs beavering away for free to make FOSS work better for Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Oracle, IBM, ... and the odd government who wants a crypto backdoor or two.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#99

Post by aeturnum »

josteink wrote: post #78
aeturnum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, I suppose the name calling, strawman-ing of arguments and insinuations of subterfuge. > toxic loonytoon > The actual goal of the movement behind the ESD > banishing contributors for wrongthink > The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking Like I said I don't know the OSI culture (or this context) but nothing about this message strikes me as s…

> banishing contributors for wrongthink And now he is banished. Are you really arguing against this?

I think communities have the right to decide on what kind of engagement they want.

ESR could be acting within the community standards of OSI, in which case I don't think he should be banned.

I also find the way he engages to be more hostile than I'm comfortable with and probably wouldn't want to work an environment where it was the norm.

Re: Open Source Initiative bans co-founder, Eric S Raymond

#100

Post by sascha_sl »

josteink wrote: post #78
aeturnum wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, I suppose the name calling, strawman-ing of arguments and insinuations of subterfuge. > toxic loonytoon > The actual goal of the movement behind the ESD > banishing contributors for wrongthink > The "Persona Non Grata" clause is best understood as an attempt to paralyze resistance to such political ratfucking Like I said I don't know the OSI culture (or this context) but nothing about this message strikes me as s…

> banishing contributors for wrongthink And now he is banished. Are you really arguing against this?

He is banished for being an ass, not for his exhaustive level-headed critique of known supermarxist coraline ada ehmke /s
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