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Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

blogs.scientificamerican.com

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Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#291

Post by Ajedi32 »

acchow wrote: post #286
Ajedi32 wrote: post #251

Everyone in the comments here debating the merits of Mars vs the Moon vs Titan seems to have missed the whole point of this article. The author is arguing that anywhere other than Titan is infeasible due to recent research suggesting that Galactic Cosmic Rays cause significant brain damage (not just increased risk of cancer). In fact, the article argues that the danger is so severe that even getting to Titan quickly…

Would living underground on Mars mitigate this?

Yes, assuming you can get to Mars fast enough to mitigate the risk during transit.

The article author argues that underground living spaces are difficult to build and that Titan is therefore a better option, though personally I find that a rather unconvincing argument. Compared to the difficulty of getting to Mars, building underground habitats seems pretty straightforward in my uninformed opinion.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#292

Post by svaigsq »

hutzlibu wrote: post #220
protomyth wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why yes, let's test out something that can kill billions on Earth before trying it on an uninhabited area.

I think he meant, before we try to mess with a planet far away, we have a CO2 problem here on earth already urging to be solved in general. Not necessarily, to experiment wildly in the process here on earth.

Stap this nonsense. It is clear that there is overpopulation on this planet, where most of the population want to consume all available resources to them, but there must be easier ways to deal with that problem... CO2 is food for plants. If you take away CO2 out of atmosphere of Earth, it is end of life for oxygen breathing life - Earth is inhabited not only by intelligent morons. Rise of temperature on Earth is not caused by CO2(which is generated also by volcanoes), that is generated by humans, but by behavior of Sun. Winter around poles is caused by inclination of Earth - not because there is abundance of CO2... oh, I must have mixed something up, because when I started to read sci-fi, it was all about next Ice Age on Earth. And that we are doomed and that everyone will die. And we need to get to different planet. Despite that there are no habitable planets in reasonable distance. With no breathable air or water. And if there were, then we would be kicked out, if we tried to land. Because that is not how things works - if you have habitable planet, you should care about it.

There is no H on Venus surface, so it is impossible to change Venus with local resources. So, they have to be imported - and there is H in comets. So, the only way to teraform Venus is with bombarding it with thousands of comets and space junk, that contains ice. Maybe getting H out of gas planets might be another source, too.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#293

Post by jaspergilley »

This article projects too linearly to the future: terraforming Mars, for instance, would probably be easier right now than getting people to Titan quickly. Seems like an article written for the purpose of getting clicks by being contrarian, not seriously investigating the science

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#294

Post by bayesian_horse »

Both Mars and Titan currently lack an economical reason to try and live there.

As long as it's just about the science or bragging rights, it will be completely paid for from earth's resources, instead of building on its own.

Any idea what tangible "export products" could make a Mars colony sustainable? I don't think space tourism is enough.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#295

Post by ryanmercer »

btkramer9 wrote: post #222
kjs3 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you think that the Moon is the obvious next milestone in space.

The only thing going for the moon is its proximity to Earth. Mars has more than double the gravity of the moon, an atmosphere, nearly earth-like day night cycle and satellites have a much easier time orbiting mars

Proximity matters a lot until you have sure-fire technology.

If you have a critical failure on the moon, you are home in 3-4 days being debriefed. If you have a critical failure on Mars, it could be 2 years until your remains can be recovered and respectfully laid to rest.

If you're testing a new technology and discover some serious flaw or major way to improve it and lack the materials to make an adjustment you could have that done and sent on the next trip in a week or a month or 3 months from Earth to the Moon. On Mars, you could be looking at 2+ years.

On the moon you have to deal with power over a 13.65 day night, at first this could be achieved by simply having human missions only there for 2 weeks ~ at a time until you get enough power generation there (say a small reactor) to provide sufficient power constnatly. On Mars you have to deal with a night comparable in length to Earth but you have considerably reduced solar irradiance meaning if you use PV it's always going to produce less during the day. This makes the Moon a better candidate for testing power management, battery technologies, small reactors, etc.

Any technology that can survive in the harsher conditions of the moon, will mostly work out of the box on Mars with the only real stuff needing custom-tailored being vehicles as the Martian and luanr regolith will vary enough (especially combined with the gravity differences) to require you to at least adjust suspensions and wheels.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#296

Post by palisade »

beefman wrote: post #201

The dangers of radiation on Mars are greatly exaggerated. The dangers of low gravity on Titan and elsewhere are greatly understated, as is the immense distance between Mars and Titan. A floating habitat on Venus is harder and less attractive in every way than a rotating space station, which is clearly our next milestone in space. In terms of planets though, there's a reason Mars gets the most attention: it's obviousl…

A floating habitat on Venus is actually more attractive. Venus (upper atmosphere): -human livable temperatures with modest temperature control -Earth-like pressure (Himalayans) leads to slow leaks that can be patched, and pressure can be increased inside to stop the leaks inward -protected by thick atmosphere from radiation, meteors, asteroids -strong magnetic field against radiation -atmosphere still thin enough for solar panel energy use -the sulfuric acid atmosphere requires a Teflon coating and/or mixing Teflon particles with the metals during fabrication -the escape velocity from the upper atmosphere is low and requires a small rocket and not much fuel, leaving more fuel for return trips -distance between Earth and Venus is 3 months, versus 6 months to a 1 year depending on the window of opportunity.. that means you can rescue crews faster, get them supplies quicker, and replace crew sooner on Venus -oxygen on Venus has a strong lifting power, you can float entire heavy concrete and steel cities on massive platforms, think cloud city from Star Wars(tm) -aerodynamics work similarly to Earth; airships (dirigibles), airplanes, drones are all possible here Concept mission to Venus compliments of NASA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0az7DEwG68A

Mars: -inhospitable temperatures not suitable for human or plant life -explosive decompression due to a micro-meteorite causing a hole -no atmosphere to protect against radiation or projectiles -weak magnetic field providing no protection -violent unpredictable wind storms on the surface -unbreathable atmosphere -the escape velocity from Mars requires a massive rocket equivalent to the one we use to leave Earth and therefore more fuel leaving less payload for delivering other resources or supplies -the distance is 6 months to 1 year depending on the window of opportunity, leading to some NASA scientists to suggest we should find it acceptable that it as a suicide mission with no hope of return

Rotating space station: -high risk from impacts -no atmosphere to protect against radiation or projectiles -no magnetic field providing no protection -danger from space debris from previous missions -no surrounding breathable atmosphere -close distance makes resupplying and re-crewing more tenable -requires constant fuel and attention to not de-orbit -does not establish a permanent residence -not a base of significant distance for further operations to the rest of the solar system

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#297

Post by ryanmercer »

peanut_is_yum wrote: post #290
ryanmercer wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has been done in various hard science fiction novels. One series, the name escapes me at the moment, actually has one group of engineered human warriors that are quite different mentally from normal humans but they can survive in vacuum and have some insect-like traits physically. They can just drift through vacuum and quietly attach to the hull of an enemy ship. Then you have the Old Man's War universe where th…

> This has been done in various hard science fiction novels. One series, the name escapes me at the moment, actually has one group of engineered human warriors that are quite different mentally from normal humans but they can survive in vacuum and have some insect-like traits physically. They can just drift through vacuum and quietly attach to the hull of an enemy ship. Pretty sure this was in some book in the Old Ma…

Looks like you are right, 'homo astrum'. https://oldmanswar.fandom.com/wiki/Homo_Astrum

I read entirely too much hard science fiction to remember what comes from where, it's why as much as I'd love to I'll never write a space opera. I'd constantly be afraid I was unintentionally plagiarizing multiple authors.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#298

Post by rthomas6 »

ghaff wrote: post #253
wmeredith wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over time, we could evolve a branch of humanity, "Homo ares" These were called Belters (as in asteroid belt) in the excellent book series The Expanse, which is also an excellent sci-fi show available on Amazon.

The Expanse is quite good. But the earth/Mars/Belt differences are mostly cultural at least in the TV series. The "Belters" meme in SF has been around for a long time though. See Larry Niven for example. (And I'm sure it's older than that.)

In the books it's MUCH more than cultural, to the point that belters are unable to visit Earth without some difficulty due to too much gravity. Belters are described as much taller and more slender that people born and raised on Earth.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#299

Post by Zenbit_UX »

jerome-jh wrote: post #60

Why not colonize deserts on earth? It is vastly less energy consuming, vastly more useful, but no less of a challenge.

I suspect it's because you're missing the larger point here. Having off-site backups is best practice for both system administrators _and_ civilizations.

Re: Saturn's largest moon may be the only place beyond Earth where humans could live

#300

Post by nitrogen »

ghaff wrote: post #253
wmeredith wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over time, we could evolve a branch of humanity, "Homo ares" These were called Belters (as in asteroid belt) in the excellent book series The Expanse, which is also an excellent sci-fi show available on Amazon.

The Expanse is quite good. But the earth/Mars/Belt differences are mostly cultural at least in the TV series. The "Belters" meme in SF has been around for a long time though. See Larry Niven for example. (And I'm sure it's older than that.)

The novels portray each group has having more significant physiological differences. Naomi is supposed to be quite a bit taller than Holden, for example.
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