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Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

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Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The efficient market hypothesis would like a word with you.

I just googled that to inform myself. > The efficient market hypothesis in financial economics that states that asset prices reflect all available information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Efficient-market_hypothesis The efficient market hypothesis seems easily disproven with a number of modern examples. Climate change for example - there is significant information available, but markets act as though the information…

There is also a matter of weighting. Some facts are known but viewed as uncorrelated or unimportant to the stock price. Facts may be obvious, but wrongly discarded as irrelevant.

I think of markets as a real-time implementation of information theory. There are certain facts that exist, and they are not all known although they may be discoverable. As they become known, or are considered more heavily, those facts bleed into market prices.

In this view, the market is a collective model of the world and thus it is not reflective of all true information.

The model overvalues the confidence and beliefs of people who have money. Sometimes, these people trade stock of companies that deal more with lower-income individuals. Their knowledge of those companies is limited, but over time they may converge toward a better understanding.

Also, sometimes there are errors in interpretation of easily discoverable facts. After 9/11, interest rates went down, but the market didn't price that into auto sales despite 0% interest auto loans being offered to the market.

The market is a model that perpetually converges to a set of facts that are constantly shifting. There is always a gradient (like osmotic pressure) between the model and the reality it represents, so there is always some motion in the market.

And there is always a set of expectations about the future that must be reflected in the model. These expectations have a wide variety of distributions, some are gaussian, others are bimodal, etc. That adds another layer of complexity in getting the model to converge to an appropriate expected value.

Not only that, but several different assets are interlinked. For example, if you buy a large block of call options on a high-volatility name, the market-maker will probably buy stock as a hedge. But in the absence of an upcoming event, he will buy patiently over the course of several trading days in order to minimize the price change resulting from his purchase ("delta impact"). So the market knows that the market-maker traded options, but he has an incentive to hide his hedging activity from other market participants so that they don't front-run him. As a result, it takes time for the purchase of the delta via options to be reflected in the underlying stock -- even though the options trade was printed on the exchange immediately and publicly.

Even if markets were efficient to known information, their price moves do not arrive at equilibrium instantaneously. There is an information gradient -- a kind of osmotic pressure between what is truly happening and what is reflected in the price -- that takes time to normalize itself.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#702

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to state with certainty what you’ve said or the opposite. It is prudent of everyone to exercise caution and avoid panic that increases the potential for harm. Being dismissive is just a destructive as being overprotective.

Sure there is: the data.

It's a moving target, though. Viruses mutate.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#703
post #672
post #625

I notice that there are many commenters here offering opinions on the future price of equities. Note that nobody has any idea where equity prices will be in one day, never mind one year or ten years' time. As a retail investor (i.e. not extremely rich), you can't gain any advantage over the market that overcomes your transaction costs. So relax. There's nothing to do here. If you're contributing to a retirement fund,…

"There's nothing to do here." Maybe. I imagine it's a trigger for some people to review their investment mix. Not saying panic sell at this particularly bad moment, but downturns are an obvious heads up for people that assumed everything would constantly rise. Changing your mix for future deposits might not be a bad idea if your current mix is higher risk than it should be for your age.

[deleted]

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#704
post #625

I notice that there are many commenters here offering opinions on the future price of equities. Note that nobody has any idea where equity prices will be in one day, never mind one year or ten years' time. As a retail investor (i.e. not extremely rich), you can't gain any advantage over the market that overcomes your transaction costs. So relax. There's nothing to do here. If you're contributing to a retirement fund,…

> As a retail investor (i.e. not extremely rich), you can't gain any advantage over the market that overcomes your transaction costs. Sure you can. You develop a system, learn how to find information, and make good predictions of future human behavior. You should learn the ins and outs of the product you're trading.

Very few active fund managers can consistently beat their indexes. Why do you believe you would be better over a long period of time?

Vanguard Study of Actively Managed Funds vs Index Performance: https://personal.vanguard.com/pdf/ISGIDX.pdf

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#705

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an investor, if you believe the market is going to drop, there are various ways to profit from this. One of the easiest is buying ETFs that move inversely to certain market indexes (shorts them). For example, SH [0] is an ETF that moves inversely proportional to the S&P 500 index. So if the S&P 500 is down 2%, SH goes up 2%. More exciting are the leveraged ETFs that track double or triple the underlying index. SDS…

Inverse or leveraged ETFs are terrible for anyone except for day traders. You can't buy and hold them, because they degrade over time, especially the leveraged ETFs. If you really want to short, then short the stock directly with proper stop losses or buy puts, but options are very complicated with various types of premium, most importantly time premium which also causes prices to degrade.

Correct in principle — from what I recall, leverage ETFs' beta decay over time is caused by the overhead of the leverage. You can see this with SH, for example; while it seems to perfectly mirror SPX, there's a slow rate of value loss over time.

However, if you look at ETFs like TMF over time, short-term gains easily overcome the decay. If you'd invested in TMF on Jan 1, you'd be up 92% now.

And it's not like options and shorts don't come with premiums. There's no free lunch, but there's the possibility of returns wildly beyond your initial investment.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a retail investor (i.e. not extremely rich), you can't gain any advantage over the market that overcomes your transaction costs. Sure you can. You develop a system, learn how to find information, and make good predictions of future human behavior. You should learn the ins and outs of the product you're trading.

The efficient market hypothesis would like a word with you.

Out of the all the casualties of the virus, the efficient market hypothesis has got to be one of them...

Where were efficient markets when all news from China pointed to a pandemic?

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#707

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The error, actually, is in the first part rather than the second. We don't know where it will be in a day or a year, but there's good reason to think we know where it will be in ten years: about twice where it is now. It might be only 1.5x or it might be 3x, but it's not very likely to fall very far outside of that range. Given that, if you have ten years to wait before you need your money, it's as good a place as an…

The counterexamples that have been brought up elsewhere on this post are Gold (still below 40 year high) and the Nikkei (still below 30 year high).

Gold is a single concentrated bet, not really comparable to a stock-market index, and the Nikkei shows why it's important to diversify outside of your home country. For almost everyone, "buy the global market portfolio and forget about it" is the right advice.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#708
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah not a crash? Well it kinda is, and if it keeps going further down it will definitely cause a recession. The oil price drop was a huge punch in the gut, and I wonder what happens to US oil production if it stays this low for longer. Or well any oil production that can't compete with these prices.

Almost nobody is drilling new oil wells, they stopped last year sometime. Almost nobody because there are still investors keeping one skeleton crew running just so they have expertise for when the oil price recovers. Once a well is drilled the cost to drill the well is a sunk cost. You keep pumping oil if the cost to run the pumps is less than the price you get. Most people with oil are large enough to shut down some…

OPEC has failed to reduce output to prop prices up, and they've crashed as a result.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as usual, the financial advice is "who knows what to do good luck"

There's no good active trading solution here because no one knows what's going on. People occasionally make the right calls, but they also occasionally make the right calls on coin flips, too. There's a reason for that: the only good solution is a passive one. Ignore the panic, hold, stay the course, and put more money into the stock market when it's down. The large majority of active traders do worse than the market…

Plus if you follow a textbook approach with some % stocks / bonds you'll end up buying when the market dips and selling when it goes up (since if stocks go up you'll have to sell a little to bring the percent back down and vice versa). So if the market swings up and down a lot you get a little extra.

Re: Trading halted as U.S. stocks plummet

#710
post #625

I notice that there are many commenters here offering opinions on the future price of equities. Note that nobody has any idea where equity prices will be in one day, never mind one year or ten years' time. As a retail investor (i.e. not extremely rich), you can't gain any advantage over the market that overcomes your transaction costs. So relax. There's nothing to do here. If you're contributing to a retirement fund,…

Unless you use robinhood which has no transactions fees.
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