Not being an asshole will make you more money • Hacker News Board

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#161

Post by dumbfoundded » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:22 PM UTC

DoreenMichele wrote: post #156

dumbfoundded wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate this concise framing. I do think it gets more complicated than this though. Defining the pie gets really complicated. Sometimes you make one pie bigger and another smaller. Companies like Lyft certainly decreased the taxi pie but then made a new one altogether. I believe there are fair ways to extract value from what already exists by creating a better version in a competitive market. Ultimately I think…

I believe there are fair ways to extract value from what already exists by creating a better version in a competitive market. Adding efficiency is a means to add more pie. Obviously, my comment is a simplification. It kind of goes without saying that simplifications leave out a lot of nuance and gray zone.

Yeah, I didn't mean to add unnecessary complexity. I agree with your original statement.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#162

Post by downerending » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:27 PM UTC

papito wrote: post #28

Ididntdothis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often ask people who are complaining about their salary whether have asked for a raise. Most of the time the answer is “no” followed by reasons like “I am afraid to get fired” or “they will make my life miserable” or “they should just do the right thing”.

Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. Secondly, who ever gets fired for asking for a raise? I mean, that is not normal. And if that does happen to you, it's most likely of some other underlying factors, where asking for a raise is just the last drop.

True, but it's not a foolproof strategy. I'm shy about asking for more money, too. Instead, when I want a raise, I just line up a new job with the raise and switch.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#163

Post by ta1234567890 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:31 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #147

ta1234567890 wrote: post #63

A few years ago I started a company, then raised money through convertible notes. By the time the notes were due (2 years), we weren't ready to raise a round yet, so all investors extended their notes. All except one. The investor that didn't want to extend the note was also the CEO of the company that was our largest client, so not only did he call his note, he also ended his company's contract, making a huge hole i…

Another way put this is that he lent you money to build your company and then paid you money every month as a customer. When the note came due, you couldn't pay. One possibility that they cancelled their contract not to screw you, but because they felt you were not getting the job done and the future wasn't there for your company. Given that, it would make little sense to extend the note or continue the contract. As…

You are right. There are always multiple sides and stories for the same situation.

It is perfectly possible that it could be that way, and I wish it was that way because then it would only be a money issue, which could (in theory) be rationally resolved.

Things that somehow contradict that, is how unwilling to resolve the issue the investor has been. The company was profitable at the time he ended his contract and called the note. At that time he said he didn't care about his note, that he'd just write it off as a loss and he'd get 50% back in taxes. He could also have gotten his money back by taking a payment plan. Additionally we offered up the assets as payment so we could avoid bankruptcy, but he refused. Then he abandoned the assets after acquiring them in bankruptcy.

To me it doesn't make any sense, but I hope you are right, that this is only about his money and that we can somehow reach an agreement that puts a definitive end to this mess.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#164

Post by thomk » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:32 PM UTC

listsfrin wrote: post #131

pc86 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this has been tried before and they typically end in one of three outcomes: 1) It was a mistake and it doesn't go to court. 2) It was intentional and it doesn't go to court because the attorney, while still being a piece of shit, understands what option 3 is. 3) It was intentional, it goes to court, and you produce the email evidence showing the attorney agreed to changeset N then sent along changeset N-1, and…

* if you have the money and the people prepared for 3)

Civil lawsuits come down to just one thing in this country: MONEY.

Not the law, not what is right or who has been virtuous. Just money. Or more specifically: who has the money.

If you are poor and you sue someone who is rich, they control that outcome. If you are rich and you sue someone who is poor, they (by default) control that outcome; there's nothing there. If you are both poor, a judge will often decide based who looks and sounds the less poor. If you are both rich, then (the equivalent of) actuaries decide the outcome.

Criminal lawsuits are similar. I do not care how much you fuck up in this country; The amount of time you spend in jail will be inversely proportional to the amount of money you can spend to fight it.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#165

Post by tunesmith » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:35 PM UTC

bradlys wrote: post #96

papito wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. They are not going to offer it to you, normally, because they are not a charity. They want to give you the least amount of money that you will except. Secondly, who ever gets fired for asking for a raise? I mean, that is not normal. And if that does happen to you, it's most likely of some other underlying factors, where asking for a raise is just the last drop.

> Exactly. 9 out of 10 managers will give you more money. I don't know - man. I've worked at a lot of places and this doesn't seem to be a common thing. It could be I've just worked at a lot of bad places but still. Asking for more isn't enough. It has to be the threat of leaving in order to get them to give more. At which point - the advice now for managers is, if they're threatening to leave unless you pay more the…

I've always thought a "threat" of leaving is a meaningless concept. It's either a bluff or it isn't. Most straightforward way to handle it is to find another offer that you will legitimately take if you don't get a sufficient salary bump, and communicate that there aren't any hard feelings, you just need what the new employer will pay you. If your manager refuses, you move, and if he bumps your salary or counteroffers, you can reassess. This is really the only way to handle it if you want to keep things simple. Or, you can bluff.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#166

Post by ta1234567890 » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:36 PM UTC

JackFr wrote: post #151

xwdv wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would he make it so personal? What did you guys do to him?

Is it possible that it wasn't personal? That the contract was cancelled because the product wasn't worth it? That the note wasn't extended because he thought the company was a money sink which would not be profitable? That he thought trying to liquidate the good bits was a better way to get his money, rather than a payment plan from a value destroying enterprise? That he sued personally because he felt they might be…

It is possible, and I'm hoping that's the case (that it is not a personal issue).

Replied to another comment of yours with more detail on why it looks like a weird situation.

To add a bit more: our investors, the lawyers that we've worked with so far and even the bankruptcy trustee's team, have all been surprised by the way this guy has been handling the situation and seem to agree that it doesn't make sense to proceed that way in terms of getting a return on his money.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#167

Post by SignalsFromBob » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:49 PM UTC

seanhunter wrote: post #5

I have an example. In a previous role was in a position where we were negotiating a large-ish (>1M USD) multi-year contract when our client asked us to also do a proof of concept about some topic. It was just 1 week or 2 weeks so I said it would be free but because of various regulatory stuff we needed a contract in place. I was dealing with the same purchasing lawyer on both contracts. The process was super-standard…

I hope you cut that client lose. If they'll do something like that on the POC they'll do it on the big contract and in numerous other ways. You'll have to double-check everything with a client like that and not be able to trust them. Life's too short to put up with that.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#168

Post by RobertRoberts » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:51 PM UTC

meritt wrote: post #32

seanhunter wrote: post #5

I have an example. In a previous role was in a position where we were negotiating a large-ish (>1M USD) multi-year contract when our client asked us to also do a proof of concept about some topic. It was just 1 week or 2 weeks so I said it would be free but because of various regulatory stuff we needed a contract in place. I was dealing with the same purchasing lawyer on both contracts. The process was super-standard…

> by backing out all of our changes and only putting in his changes That so feels like a mistake because that's the sort of tactic that would completely and utterly remove their capability of ever working as a corporate lawyer ever again for any company. If that genuinely happened, that lawyer needs to be disbarred, but that's a pretty damn egregious accusation.

> That so feels like a mistake...

Easy to test.

1. Send back the document he sent with a copy of your most recent edits and ask him to confirm if his document is correct.

2. But, make note of at ONE error, and see if he fixes all of them.

3. If he only fixes only the one, then he's either really lazy or trying to keep up the deceit.

4. Repeat steps 1 to 3, be sure to CC everyone involved. If he's lazy he will be ashamed and be more careful. If he's a sneaky bastard he will most likely get angry.

Not foolproof, but will sure make everyone aware of what is going on. (regardless of the motives)

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#169

Post by mcv » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:53 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #127

airstrike wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I guess Americans think that's fine because "it's just business". That's a really prejudiced and unwarranted view of Americans. If anything it says more about your biases and prejudices than it does about one nation.

> That's a really prejudiced and unwarranted view of Americans. If anything it says more about your biases and prejudices than it does about one nation. I am an American citizen so you can take it from an American citizen instead. Companies have zero scruples whatsoever about screwing over others in business.

But other companies still do business with them, right? So they're getting away with it.

Re: Not being an asshole will make you more money

#170

Post by jfengel » Fri, Mar 06, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

Spooky23 wrote: post #101

throwanem wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair point. On the other hand, I'm not much more inclined to work with a stupid lawyer than a malicious one. If he opens by screwing up this badly, what's he going to do next? There are some cases in which granting the benefit of the doubt is too much of a risk to be worth taking.

Be careful with how you as a non-attorney assess the intelligence of attorneys. With a sufficiently big organization, it's common for some sort of higher precedence, non-negotiable appendix to render most of this stuff moot anyway. Corporate attorneys on the sell-side, even at surprisingly big companies frequently screw this up, often when making snide comments through the salespeople. My buddy tells a story from whe…

Unfortunately, as with all cases of information asymmetry, I lack the tools on which to assess them. But since it's required that I do make an assessment, I am going to have to take an extremely self-defensive posture.

The attorney is the expert. I am not. If the attorney makes a mistake, I have no tools with which to judge whether it was stupidity or malice. I have to assume that it's both. My own attorney may better be able to make that assessment, and I'll respect their judgment. But until then, an opposing attorney has to be assumed to have all of the power and every reason to use it.