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Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

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Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#271

Post by ulzeraj »

johnlorentzson wrote: post #133
rlv-dan wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> buses not taking cash is perfectly fine I guess, if you are ok with leaving an electronic trail whereever you go...

The tickets have no way of identifying you unless you register on their website. You could always just get rid of your card and get a new one when you want to.

Here in Brazil they deprecated and outlawed NFC transportation cards that are not associated to a social ID. They can track you as much as they want. Luckily there are still cash payments and subway paper tickets but that might go away someday.

One of the most ridiculous thing about this country is that anonymity is not a right according to the constitution.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#272

Post by jcbrand »

robert_foss wrote: post #204
smichel17 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

I live in Germany and routinely use one and two cent coins when paying exact amounts.

Still have to experience someone laughing in my face for doing so.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#273

Post by 2rsf »

hocuspocus wrote: post #154
mchaver wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing that has always seemed strange to me is you have to prove you have an address to access many parts of society like banks and schools. This leaves out the homeless and people who have a residency but for some reason (bad landlord, staying at a friend’s place and not on the lease, etc.) can’t prove it in a way that satisfies the authorities.

I've never seen a school ask for proof of address in Europe. As for banks, it depends a lot on the country. While it's an issue for the homeless, it shouldn't be for people who're staying at some temporary accommodation. For instance in Germany, where most banks ask for proof of address (the registration at your municipality), it's also trivial get a valid document from whoever is hosting you (landlord or main tenant…

Since you can choose any school in Sweden, and schools are funded by the local community (communities pay for students going to other communities) they do require a proof of address

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#274

Post by zoomablemind »

digestiv3 wrote: post #255
zoomablemind wrote: post #242

The convenience of electronic payments is obvious. But cashless sounds more like a restriction, indeed inconvenience. Say, one lost a wallet and phone (robbed or just that, lost) and needs to get back home somehow. Public transportation requires an electronic ticket, cab needs card. What's then? Walk to your bank branch, explain to driver the story and pay later, hope a compelled passenger would pay for you? Lending…

Here is a radical idea: what if everyone paid their tickets through a public infrastructure tax. That way neither the person with cards or cash in their wallets has to worry about getting home. We don't even need to carry a wallet that could get lost in the first place!

In many European cities transportation is on honor basis, that is you're assumed to have paid the ticket, unlike elsewhere to pay on entry. But this is paired with random control runs and stiff penalties.

I would imagine one could just take a free ride, and prepare to tell the story if caught. Or maybe even go to police, report a loss, maybe get some means to get home.

Well, it's like a society contract. Looks like it has some small font on it too :)

This changes the notion of money, turning it more into rationning system. Cashless seems almost a step away from social credit system. You can get your "allocated share".

What does it mean to be a run-away in Sweden? Is it walk-away, hide-away, certainly not cashless...

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#275

Post by 2rsf »

kuschku wrote: post #108
username90 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you really lose your card that often why don't you just order two to begin with? You'd have to take precautions like this even with normal money, since if you misplaced your monthly allowance you'd still be out for several weeks.

Because that’s not possible – you can’t have multiple cards with the same name on the same account. I know, I’ve tried after I’ve spent the entirety of january without without a card due to losing one (and the bank fucking up the replacement).

order an extra credit card, never use it and store it someplace safe

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#276

Post by pimterry »

2rsf wrote: post #244
tyfon wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We got a system in Norway called Vipps for small transactions that I refuse to take part in but it seems like 99% of the rest of the population are using it. I've yet to have anyone refuse to pay me via direct bank transfer or me paying them in this way when I ask and explain why I don't use Vipps.

> explain why I don't use Vipps please explain. direct bank transfers are still slow (same bank) to unacceptable (different banks) for most payments

In general, within the EU, this is rapidly improving.

> still slow (same bank)

SEPA instant credit transfer is standardized since 2017 and supported by > 50% of banks & payment providers (https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/what-we-do/sepa-insta...). If both parties support that then bank transfers take under 10 seconds.

If that's not supported somehow classic SEPA transfers work everywhere, and arrive in 1 business day max. 1 day isn't something you can use in a shop of course, but if you need to pay back a friend it's pretty acceptable imo.

> unacceptable (different banks)

Not accepting IBANs or SEPA payments from other banks or from banks in other EU countries is illegal, and comes with substantial fines.

It still happens in places of course, especially in slow moving large orgs, but if you still find organizations doing this nowadays then you can report them as breaching EU payment regulations (https://eba.europa.eu/consumer-corner/how-to-complain) and that should set a fire under things pretty quickly.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#277

Post by 2rsf »

kzrdude wrote: post #96
username90 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have bank accounts and debit cards like everyone else? In Sweden everyone can get Visa and Mastercard debit cards so you can even do internet purchases everywhere with them. If you mean how they transfer money between each other, they just use smart phones and Swish. Beggars even ask for money that way.

> everyone This is unfortunately not true, because you need a personal number to have a bank account.

I'm not sure it is legally true, although I have heard it is in reality

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#278

Post by karatestomp »

smichel17 wrote: post #166
ksec wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea.... Exactly. We could get rid of coins, and replace it with an electronic variant and leave paper cash alone. I am all for contactless payment, but I want the option to use cash. The only thing that guarantees privacy. And this is especially true in places without democracy, as shown in the Hong Kong Protest.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

I think calls to get rid of the penny in the US don't go far enough. At least get rid of the nickel, too, and go to $.10 and $.50 coins only. Better yet, and avoiding the need to bring the $.50 piece back into common use, get rid of all coins smaller than the quarter.

If there's practically nothing you can buy with two of a coin, it's probably time for it to go.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#279

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC wrote: post #163
username90 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cash is not very useful if the power is out either, as for internet you just have to make it as reliable as power.

You do realize that cash was in use before electricity as a utility was a thing, right? And that food is actually more critical for survival than electricity, right? And that you can exchange cash for food without electricity, right? And that blackouts is a thing that actually happens, right?

Be nice to the Eloi.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#280

Post by 2rsf »

kungtotte wrote: post #51
reaperducer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how do poor people function in a cashless society?

Go to any number of places that still accept cash? Our major grocery store chains all still accept cash (ICA, Coop, Willys, Hemköp etc.) and at least ICA and Coop sells pretty much -everything- at their larger stores. They don't sell mattresses or furniture I guess, but you can go there with enough money and come out fully equipped to go camping for example. IKEA also accepts cash still, so you can buy your furniture…

I guess you live near an IKEA store then.

To get to IKEA and buy furniture you'll need to top up your SL card using card.

In rural ("rural" meaning an hour commute from Stockholm) you'll find it even harder to get and use cash.

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