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Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

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Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#211

Post by altacc »

buckminster wrote: post #149
altacc wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An odd equivalent to make as I don't see the push to go cashless advertised as a similar public health benefit to cycling. There is data to suggest that segregating cyclists from traffic, if done properly, can reduce serious collision by 70% and deaths by 30%. Sometimes when somebody says something is good for you, it actually is.

Many people consider the surveillance that comes with electronic money to be a good thing, and they are suspicious of anyone who wants to opt out. Their emotional response to these examples is not that different.

Cynically I consider the people most interested in surveillance of money to be the tax office. (Note that I'm a believer of paying taxes and not avoiding them, and using taxation to fund public goods, voluntarily living in Norway and all.) The flip side is doing a tax return is very easy as the tax office already knows absolutely everything about your financial situation.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#212

Post by dijit »

tda wrote: post #210
robert_foss wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

The 1 and 2 cents problem can easily be solved by agreeing to stop using them and round all transactions to the nearest. Think we stopped using 1 and 2 cent coins in the Netherlands more than 15 years ago

The ironic thing here is that Sweden already does that. there is no 1c equivalent coin, the smallest denomination of currency is roughly 10c (1SEK) so things already get rounded.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#213

Post by Hitton »

cko wrote: post #99
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

I'm quite interested in your setup. You walk around with a feature phone and some bills? Sounds really Zen. I would like to get to that point. How do you navigate without Maps, Uber, etc.? Do your friends know you won't reply to texts? Maybe I'll buy a separate flip phone and leave the smart phone and credit cards at home just in case.

>How do you navigate without Maps, Uber, etc.? Do your friends know you won't reply to texts?

It's crazy how everyday reality from 20 years ago is now seen as unimaginable as hermitic living.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#214

Post by LessDmesg »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #18
LessDmesg wrote: post #11

And when the (broke) Swedish government raises taxes sky-high, they will all flock to cash, gold, bitcoin and other off-the-radar payment methods.

Government debt as a percentage of GDP is very low in Sweden: https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/government-debt-to...

The thing about Swedish debt is that it's largely local than national:

https://www.scb.se/en/finding-statistics/statistics-by-subje...

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#215

Post by Legogris »

alkonaut wrote: post #197
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

> Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, Yes. Because not carrying a smartphone and a credit card in Sweden and only carrying cash is basically like traveling in from Japan with a bunch of Yen in your hand. Of course society isn't open to you if you don't carry the local currency (which is card and smartphone transactions). A bit exaggerated, perhaps, but that's where we are now, like you noti…

You mean some sort of digital cash? Perhaps settled on a publicly accessible ledger with decentralized infrastructure not relying on any single party? Preferably permissionless to utilize but resilient to attacks and not putting the operators of the infrastructure in a privileged position of power with regards to private information?

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#216

Post by pb82 »

robert_foss wrote: post #204
smichel17 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

I collect the coins in the ashtray of my car and then once in a while empty it in a machine at my local bank that counts it and transfers the amount to my bank account.

Also, i don't need ATMs that often. 100€ last me for a while and you can of course also use a card if you don't have enough cash on you.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#217

Post by ACS_Solver »

distances wrote: post #196
ACS_Solver wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm very wrong about the technical implementation, the data that the bank has is just the store where I shopped (merchant, card terminal) and the amount. They do not have data on what I bought, as in the data that's on the store's receipt. The store, on the other hand, only has the card number and not my name. This is where I see the need for legal protections. The store should not be allowed to keep that rece…

> Unless I'm very wrong about the technical implementation, the data that the bank has is just the store where I shopped (merchant, card terminal) and the amount. They do not have data on what I bought, as in the data that's on the store's receipt. You're partly correct, partly wrong -- as far as I know the payment provider doesn't have/store this data but can request it from merchants. Merchants have to opt in, but…

Some of the language there indicates that's primarily with the US in mind, which it probably is indeed. I think Sweden's different. I've read the data usage policy of my local grocery store chains (those are quite detailed thanks to GDPR), and they indicate that no such data is shared unless I'm in a loyalty program. Joining their loyalty program counts as consent for a lot of data manipulation, but as long as I'm just purchasing goods, they're not allowed to collect or store any personally identifiable information.

Also worth noting that bank privacy is protected by law, and it's a criminal offense for the bank to violate that by, for instance, telling a marketing company where I shop.

While not perfect, I'm fairly comfortable with this level of legal protection for my data.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#218

Post by Legogris »

beefield wrote: post #138
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

> It's all very convenient until the crap hits the fan I have difficulties imagining the crap hitting fan that simultaneously breaks down electronic payment systems but rather miraculously keeps the purchasing power of paper money intact for any extended time. Could you maybe elaborate why you consider this specific scenario likely enough to worry about?

Private banks have no obligation to take you as a customer and there's no public alternative.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#219

Post by svara »

robert_foss wrote: post #204
smichel17 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A few years ago I would have agreed with you, but spending time in Germany has changed my view on coins. See, in the US, coins are kind of useless on their own. You can't pay for anything with only coins, so giving exact change is always an extra step on top of paying with cash. Ugh. But in the EU, they have €1 and €2 coins, and it's difficult to overstate how much this changes the dynamic. It means that for purchase…

Being a Swede, who now lives in Germany I would say that there must be a middle ground between the extreme cash dependency of Germany and the opposite in Sweden. I have no idea how you do your shopping and end up not getting a pool of useless 1/5 cent coins. People literally laugh you in the face if you try to purchase things with them. Your only option is to give them away or collect them in a jar. And needing to co…

You're right it can be impractical. For me I mostly solved it by 1) giving back the 1, 2 and 5 cent coins I receive as change and 2) withdrawing cash with my grocery purchases, which is possible in many stores.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#220

Post by mellavora »

altacc wrote: post #98
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

It is incredibly convenient but you're right that it presents barriers that are hard to overcome as very little thought is given to handling people without bank accounts, cards, bank id. I'm across the border in Norway and when I moved here I was locked out of pretty much everything because I didn't have a bank account with a BankID (a proof of identity service provided by your bank and used for all government websit…

And you can't get a bankID unless you are a resident, because it is very hard to get a bank account as a non-resident due to AML regs.

So a Swedish citizen who is not a Swedish resident is completely cut off.

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