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Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

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Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#191

Post by Cu3PO42 »

ferzul wrote: post #32
tedeh wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A bank account is a right for every EU citizen: https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/financial-pr... Banks are not allowed to refuse account opening to any resident.

Well, I don't know if it's the difference between “resident” and “citizen”, but i was told “no” or “maybe in a few weeks” many times when trying to open a bank account in October/November last year in Germany. “Maybe in a few weeks” is as good as a refusal.

If you should get into this situation again refer them to §§30 et seq. ZKG [0].

§31 specifically states that anyone with legal residence in the EU must be allowed to open a "basic" account. Occasionally banks will list this as a separate offering from their normal account, but they really should have told you about that. Sorry to hear they didn't.

[0] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/zkg/__30.html

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#192

Post by leadingthenet »

scrollaway wrote: post #130
telesilla wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>challengers like N26 Don't you need a bank account to transfer money into N26? As far as I know there is no way to deposit cash into any of these disrupter service providers.

In Germany, N26 is partnered with a service that lets you deposit up to 100 EUR / month into your account, in cash, for free at supermarkets (and more for a fee). https://n26.com/en-de/cash26 AFAIK it's the only challenger bank to support doing something like this for free, even in a limited amount. Even Bunq, which I pay for, doesn't support it ( https://together.bunq.com/d/2933-how-do-i-deposit-money-or-t... ).

Monzo does the same, in the UK.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#193

Post by raxxorrax »

beefield wrote: post #146
johnlorentzson wrote: post #107

I'm Swedish and this stuff makes me really worried. Especially since the main way for two people to exchange small amounts of money is through a proprietary app that uses a proprietary ID system (owned by a for-profit company) that only runs on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I will say, however, that buses not taking cash is perfectly fine. Th…

> I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I fully understand that my opinion is both unintuitive and deeply disliked by many if not most people, so I can only ask you to spend some time thinking if you really have thought this through. Anyway, I believe there are realistic scenarios where it is good for the economy and society to have negative interest rates imposed by central banks…

If the mechanism of a negative interest rate requires stripping people of cash, I doubt it can deliver what it promises.

I am no economist and those might be more used to negative interest rate if they include inflation, but on the other hand it is just another tool for central banks to perhaps stimulate the economy. In my personal opinion, these monetary policies have not been all too impressive.

But no, I certainly wouldn't give up cash for a central bank to have some tool with questionable efficiency. If we are talking about wealth distribution, we should talk about limiting inheritances or something like that. Otherwise I would assume that bankers are more interested in pumping money in the economy.

I would stuff my cash into my mattress if interest rates become too low. That would probably have the effect of increasing them again if enough people do so.

We have a problem with private losses being put on the tab of tax payers. You would need to solve that problem too aside from the lacking privacy of digital cash to make me think about it.

Some economists are also critical about these policies, so it isn't really clear, if negative rate will help in the first place. That some are afraid of deflation might have something to do with debt, couldn't that just be the case?

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#194

Post by SuoDuanDao »

beefield wrote: post #146
johnlorentzson wrote: post #107

I'm Swedish and this stuff makes me really worried. Especially since the main way for two people to exchange small amounts of money is through a proprietary app that uses a proprietary ID system (owned by a for-profit company) that only runs on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I will say, however, that buses not taking cash is perfectly fine. Th…

> I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I fully understand that my opinion is both unintuitive and deeply disliked by many if not most people, so I can only ask you to spend some time thinking if you really have thought this through. Anyway, I believe there are realistic scenarios where it is good for the economy and society to have negative interest rates imposed by central banks…

>I believe there are realistic scenarios where it is good for the economy and society to have negative interest rates imposed by central banks.

Could you articulate one of those scenarios and why negative interest rates would be the best solution?

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#195

Post by askesum »

alkonaut wrote: post #189
johnlorentzson wrote: post #107

I'm Swedish and this stuff makes me really worried. Especially since the main way for two people to exchange small amounts of money is through a proprietary app that uses a proprietary ID system (owned by a for-profit company) that only runs on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I will say, however, that buses not taking cash is perfectly fine. Th…

The proprietary id is at least co-owned by all the major consumer banks, so it's slightly better than it being just some random small company. I'd prefer if it was a government operation of course, especially since now almost all contact with authorities goes through this system. The right thing to do would be to create a publicly owned e-ID and electronic cash, and replace the reliance on BankID and credit cards.

As a Trisquel user I am completely excluded from this system.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#196

Post by distances »

ACS_Solver wrote: post #179
shadowprofile77 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I refuse to own any store loyalty cards because they give the store an exact list of what I buy, tied to my identity, which is a much bigger privacy threat. You're engaging in self delusion if you think the almost uniformly cashless payment systems you embrace in Sweden don't already cause this to be the case about you down to the minutest level: with your payments, where you make them, what you buy, when, and a ver…

Unless I'm very wrong about the technical implementation, the data that the bank has is just the store where I shopped (merchant, card terminal) and the amount. They do not have data on what I bought, as in the data that's on the store's receipt. The store, on the other hand, only has the card number and not my name. This is where I see the need for legal protections. The store should not be allowed to keep that rece…

> Unless I'm very wrong about the technical implementation, the data that the bank has is just the store where I shopped (merchant, card terminal) and the amount. They do not have data on what I bought, as in the data that's on the store's receipt.

You're partly correct, partly wrong -- as far as I know the payment provider doesn't have/store this data but can request it from merchants. Merchants have to opt in, but by now I assume all the large ones are in, at least.

These APIs can be used to get purchase details such as item names, quantities, and tax rates. See e.g. https://developer.visa.com/capabilities/visa-cardholder-purc...

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#197

Post by alkonaut »

codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

> Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me,

Yes. Because not carrying a smartphone and a credit card in Sweden and only carrying cash is basically like traveling in from Japan with a bunch of Yen in your hand. Of course society isn't open to you if you don't carry the local currency (which is card and smartphone transactions). A bit exaggerated, perhaps, but that's where we are now, like you noticed.

A solution might be to allow shops to charge extra for cash transactions. That is, force shops to accept cash, but at the same time allow them to discourage people to not use it. That way they don't need to run to the bank with cash so often, but they also have a cash system in place for when the crap hits the fan.

There is absolutely zero chance that Sweden will somehow go back to be a place where people regularly use paper money. That just won't happen. What we need is a system that is resilient, accessible, and has decent integrity protection despite people not using paper money.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#198

Post by SuoDuanDao »

beefield wrote: post #186
pb82 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm skeptic. Forcing people to buy crap they don't need by denying them ways to store cash will probably increase some numbers in some spreadsheets. But is it really a net positive for society? Or are there other reasons that I didn't consider like more people seeking investment options like the stock market?

Well, not "forcing"[1] people buying crap today makes the people creating the crap jobless and yes, that has a real cost for society. first because the jobless do not create value and second because someone needs to pay their unemployment benefits. [1] Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You can voluntarily choose to lend your money to the bank if you agree with the interest rate. If you do not, you are free to do…

If it's legal to own bitcoin or gold, what good does eliminating cash do?

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#199

Post by detaro »

beefield wrote: post #138
codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

> It's all very convenient until the crap hits the fan I have difficulties imagining the crap hitting fan that simultaneously breaks down electronic payment systems but rather miraculously keeps the purchasing power of paper money intact for any extended time. Could you maybe elaborate why you consider this specific scenario likely enough to worry about?

Backend service for electronic payment breaks for a day because $reasons, either for your bank only, the provider most stores use or for the payment network overall.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#200

Post by askesum »

beefield wrote: post #146
johnlorentzson wrote: post #107

I'm Swedish and this stuff makes me really worried. Especially since the main way for two people to exchange small amounts of money is through a proprietary app that uses a proprietary ID system (owned by a for-profit company) that only runs on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I will say, however, that buses not taking cash is perfectly fine. Th…

> I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I fully understand that my opinion is both unintuitive and deeply disliked by many if not most people, so I can only ask you to spend some time thinking if you really have thought this through. Anyway, I believe there are realistic scenarios where it is good for the economy and society to have negative interest rates imposed by central banks…

Negative interest rates is needed to secure that rate of amortization does not exceed rate of new loans, in other words to secure the money supply.I think it highlites the need for changing the way our money supply works.
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