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Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

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Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#141

Post by erk__ »

codr7 wrote: post #66

I recently moved back to Sweden after living 4 years in Germany. I don't have any cards, and I don't carry a "smart"phone anymore; in Germany this didn't cause any trouble at all and I was far from alone. Much of the current Swedish society is currently closed to me, I know of three shops and one cafe in the (200k people) city center that accept cash. Some of it has been gradual but it changed dramatically during the…

This seems strange to me, I don't know the law on the area in Sweden, but in Denmark stores must take cash, though there are a few times where they don't (eg. stores that are late open does not need to take cash between 22 and 06)

I don't know if I can find any English sources but here is one from the ombudsmand in Danish: https://www.forbrugerombudsmanden.dk/hvad-gaelder/betalingst...

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#142

Post by alltakendamned »

throw_543556 wrote: post #120

How do tourists pay for things in Sweden? Especially smaller value things. One of the most inconvenient aspects about visiting China is paying for small things. Large department stores and high end restaurants will accept foreign credit cards, but mom and pop stores don’t. While most still accept cash, sometimes the smaller stores or street vendors won’t have enough for change and you have to wait for them to get it.…

Mastercard and Visa are the most common ones here, most probably a tourists credit or debit card will support the same payment networks.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#143

Post by rags2riches »

onuban wrote: post #131

How can you have a cashless society if I have to enter the pin every time I use my card? During my last trip to Stockholm using cards was more of a hassle than using cash. London/UK is more of cashless society than Stockholm/Sweden.

Many stores don't require a pin for smaller amounts. With NFC cards it's really quite quick to pay.

I think the deal is that the store, not the payment processor, eats the cost when a stolen card is used without a pin. But the increased turnover is probably worth it in many cases.

Edit: Maybe they also require a pin for foreign cards when they wouldn't for a local? Just a guess though.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#144

Post by alfyboy »

Svip wrote: post #21
dehrmann wrote: post #17

Part of why cashless works is the same reason the Swedish welfare state generally works: a trust of government. Contrast this with Germany and its history with...lists; it's best not to have yourself be too traceable. I think the US is somewhere in-between, but at the end of the day, we'll hand over a lot for 2% cashback and avoid paying for journalism at all costs.

Another consideration is PoS cost. In Denmark, I know that credit card PoS's are super expensive to rent. And you need to rent them, because if you buy them - which is even more expensive - you'll have to replace them every year. So you need a certain amount of turnover to have a credit card PoS in Denmark. The card PoS's come in two forms; one that only takes the Danish Dankort (which is the cheaper) and one that al…

One of the reasons the expensive PoS is popular, at least in the shops where they have a high amount of customers is that the expensive PoS usually offer technical support with a SLA. The amount a medium - large shop saves on always having a payment terminal ready is more than what it might cost to rent one.

Source: Used to work as a technician fixing payment terminals.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#145

Post by simplecto »

username90 wrote: post #118
mehrdadn wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does a cashless society do when the power/internet/etc. goes out (whether due to a natural disaster or otherwise)?

Cash is not very useful if the power is out either, as for internet you just have to make it as reliable as power.

Ask everyone living in South Florida post-hurricane. Cash is king.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#146

Post by beefield »

johnlorentzson wrote: post #107

I'm Swedish and this stuff makes me really worried. Especially since the main way for two people to exchange small amounts of money is through a proprietary app that uses a proprietary ID system (owned by a for-profit company) that only runs on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I will say, however, that buses not taking cash is perfectly fine. Th…

> I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea.

I fully understand that my opinion is both unintuitive and deeply disliked by many if not most people, so I can only ask you to spend some time thinking if you really have thought this through.

Anyway, I believe there are realistic scenarios where it is good for the economy and society to have negative interest rates imposed by central banks. Cash is one of the things that prohibits this, thus we need to get rid of cash. At the same time we definitely need privacy respecting payment methods. Thus we would likely need to develop some kind of physical tokens/coins/notes/whatever whose value is time dependent.

Biggest problem here is that the amount of people who simultaneously understand the need of negative rates and privacy respecting payment systems seems to be for all practical purposes pretty close to zero, so I am not holding my breath here.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#147

Post by thesimon »

anonymou2 wrote: post #81
rlv-dan wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay more often with cash today than some years ago, as a statement. Interestingly, if you talk about cash in Sweden the comments you will get tend to be very hostile. It's like talking about meat in a vegan community.

I pay cash too as much as I can, it freaked me out when my bank started classifying my expenses. That hostile talk you mention reminds me of when I talk about vehicular cycling, specially in northern european circles, where they are a lot into segregating cyclists. I think it is a similar paternalistic issue, hey this is good for you, resistance is futile!

>it freaked me out when my bank started classifying my expenses

Through the MCC they already have that information - they just exposed it to you.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#148

Post by zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC »

dtech wrote: post #122
johnlorentzson wrote: post #107

I'm Swedish and this stuff makes me really worried. Especially since the main way for two people to exchange small amounts of money is through a proprietary app that uses a proprietary ID system (owned by a for-profit company) that only runs on iOS, Android, Windows and Mac. I really hope this trend dies off, a cash-less society is a terrible idea. I will say, however, that buses not taking cash is perfectly fine. Th…

You will always have vendor neutral payments with bank transactions, which are EU wide and regulated with SEPA. Don't know about Sweden, but in the Netherlands that's widely supported and free for consumers. What's the harm in people using a proprietary app on top of that that has slightly more convenience?

The question is: Can you interoperate without using the proprietary app? Facebook also builds on the internet and the web, but you can not interoperate with Facebook without becoming a Facebook user. And "interoperate" means that you can use an alternative while the other party does not (i.e., you are not dependent on the other party's cooperation in order to be able to use an alternative).

But also, in any case it's still a bad idea because the payment provider has the ability to just disobey your payment orders, and regulation doesn't help with that but rather potentially makes it even more likely "for security reasons". Payment providers use secret methods to decide whether your payment order is considered a security risk and then will prevent you from spending your own money based on their secret decision making process, or at least make you jump through unpredictable hoops before they allow you to spend your own money. That's a major security risk for you, in addition to all the security risks due to the well-known terrible IT security practices of banks as well as/in combination with the privacy risks of leaving a digital trail of your locations and purchases.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#149

Post by buckminster »

altacc wrote: post #92
anonymou2 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I pay cash too as much as I can, it freaked me out when my bank started classifying my expenses. That hostile talk you mention reminds me of when I talk about vehicular cycling, specially in northern european circles, where they are a lot into segregating cyclists. I think it is a similar paternalistic issue, hey this is good for you, resistance is futile!

An odd equivalent to make as I don't see the push to go cashless advertised as a similar public health benefit to cycling. There is data to suggest that segregating cyclists from traffic, if done properly, can reduce serious collision by 70% and deaths by 30%. Sometimes when somebody says something is good for you, it actually is.

Many people consider the surveillance that comes with electronic money to be a good thing, and they are suspicious of anyone who wants to opt out. Their emotional response to these examples is not that different.

Re: Swedes rebelling against a cashless society (2018)

#150

Post by Mirioron »

johnlorentzson wrote: post #133
rlv-dan wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> buses not taking cash is perfectly fine I guess, if you are ok with leaving an electronic trail whereever you go...

The tickets have no way of identifying you unless you register on their website. You could always just get rid of your card and get a new one when you want to.

They can't identify you, provided that they don't pair that data up with anything else. Eg just a few trips where you didn't turn your phone location off on the bus would be enough to know which card is yours. Even if you turn your location off every other time it wouldn't matter. Or your phone service provider can do that even with your location set to off.

Don't the plastic cards cost extra?

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