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People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

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Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#561

Post by zazaalaza »

bluGill wrote: post #358
danenania wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"they both encouraged us to study so we could do better than they did" And the parents who do this are not the ones who will sit home and drink beer all day just because they're getting a $2k/mo basic income. Instead, they could go back to school, or start a business, or travel outside the country once in awhile, or spend more time teaching their kids an important skill like music or math or programming because the i…

The only folks I saw working minimum wage to support the family didn't have those worries. Now I'll grant that health insurance was a lot cheaper 20 years ago, but still they didn't worry about payday loans - they weren't dumb enough to take them out. (I don't know who does - my personal experience doesn't show anyone doing it, but again that was 20 years ago when they weren't a thing) The ones I knew working minimum…

"Their abilities vary, but UBI won't help them as they will just waste it on some other scam."

This is correct. For scammers this will be a new gold mine. But I guess it will be a gold mine for everyone. It's 2.8 trillion every year injected into the economy. If you look at it like that than the question is, how can I divert some of that money into my own pockets?

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#562

Post by EthanHeilman »

zazaalaza wrote: post #512
jpttsn wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like the participants knew the study was temporary and invested the money in a job they knew they’d need after the study.

Exactly. With a permanent UBI in place you can throw all these studies out the window.

You can argue that the only way to perform a completely accurate UBI experiment would be to run it for at least 60-80 years for everyone. Social experiments are very hard to do and have many flaws, but it seems unreasonable to say that the information gained by doing such studies should be "thrown out the window".

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#563

Post by jasonlotito »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #90
jasonlotito wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems Americans often believe that, but virtually nobody in Western Europe would even think of going to the US for healthcare. I would assume the same for Canadians. This is not true. It's just ignored because people would rather believe that universal healthcare is infallible. We moved from Canada to the US precisely because of healthcare for our children. In Canada, care was non-existant and the private servic…

Do your children have special needs? It never even crossed my mind to move to the United States. I imagine given my profession I could get a job with decent benefits, but I can't imagine wanting to move to the states for the health care, unless I had a special requirement.

> Do your children have special needs?

Autism. The "care" provided in Canada is horrid.

> I imagine given my profession I could get a job with decent benefits,

This is not needed. The services we benefit from our state run, not based on my job.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#565

Post by EthanHeilman »

Joeri wrote: post #500
Aunche wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> millions of people lack the basic material resources needed to fulfill anything close to their potential There is a limited amount of capital in the world. Distributing it now might help those at home, but it does not help the billion people who still lack electricity. There simply is not enough capital in the world to build trillions of dollars worth of infrastructure for free. Investment is a much better vehicle…

UBI doesn’t get stuffed under the mattress, it gets spent, buying electricity, funding investment into electricity networks. Give money to the poor and most of it will end up back at the rich. It doesn’t work as well trickling down.

Trickle up economics?

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#566

Post by jasonlotito »

allannienhuis wrote: post #108
jasonlotito wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems Americans often believe that, but virtually nobody in Western Europe would even think of going to the US for healthcare. I would assume the same for Canadians. This is not true. It's just ignored because people would rather believe that universal healthcare is infallible. We moved from Canada to the US precisely because of healthcare for our children. In Canada, care was non-existant and the private servic…

universal health care has never meant that every possible heath care need is met without cost. It means that access to the covered services is universally available. Which of course isn't true in an absolute sense (residency requirements etc), but is true in most practical senses.

> It means that access to the covered services is universally available.

I know. These are services that the state was legally supposed to provide but could not. Canada failed my children. It was disgusting.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#567

Post by ctdonath »

diffeomorphism wrote: post #277
ctdonath wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because humans need an objective minimum to survive. Below that they face slow death. There's a difference between social norm vs existential need, and many people have a vested interest in conflating the two. There has to be a baseline standard, amounting to triage, above which "your core needs are met, and you have a path to thrive on - up to you to do you now." Maybe there's another moving standard of minimum stan…

The definition of "not poor" is not supposed to amount to "barely surviving" but to "living and being productive members of society". > many people have a vested interest in conflating the two. Just like you are conflating being poor and being a bad person: > your core needs are met, and you have a path to thrive on - up to you to do you now. This implicitly suggests that you are only poor because you were too lazy/s…

I implicitly suggest no such thing.

At some point it's up to a competent adult to do with their lives what they see fit under the circumstances dealt them by life. They are not automatically the charge of others just because they don't achieve some nebulous whim of strangers. Each has their own dependents to prioritize.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#568

Post by jasonlotito »

frandroid wrote: post #165
jasonlotito wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> universal healthcare That doesn't mean what you think it means. There are many things not covered or not covered practically that you would want to pay for private healthcare. e.g. You can wait years for services, or you can pay a few thousand a month and get it sooner. This is critical for things that necessitate early intervention. Wait too long, and when the government does finally come around to being able to p…

> You can wait years for services *in some rare cases

No, these aren't rare cases. If you have certain not-uncommon conditions, you can wait years for services.

Please don't presume to put words in my mouth again.

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#569

Post by [deleted] »

zazaalaza wrote: post #558
battery_cowboy wrote: post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[citation needed] Is that anything but conjecture? I see a study showing that UBI is a "good thing", and you didn't provide a source for your reasoning. Edit: to all those saying that the parent comment is straightforward, or common sense, or whatever, it's not straightforward or common sense because I disagree that UBI would be a failure. No one knows what would happen under UBI, but these types of studies give some…

What I am saying is that a temporary UBI experiment cannot simulate the changes that a permanent UBI would bring. Especially when everyone is aware that this is temporary.

[deleted]

Re: People kept working, became healthier while on basic income: report

#570

Post by jasonlotito »

allannienhuis wrote: post #89
jasonlotito wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> universal healthcare That doesn't mean what you think it means. There are many things not covered or not covered practically that you would want to pay for private healthcare. e.g. You can wait years for services, or you can pay a few thousand a month and get it sooner. This is critical for things that necessitate early intervention. Wait too long, and when the government does finally come around to being able to p…

I doubt your experience is the norm. The system isn't perfect - there's definitely gaps or things I think should be covered (eg dental), and I know everyone's experience is different, but as a counter example I've never felt the need or desire to pay for private healthcare either (aside from not-covered dental) on demand or with private insurance, and I don't know any of my family that do either. (BC resident) The sy…

> I doubt your experience is the norm

For children with autism it is the norm.

Sorry, but what they did to my children was shameful.

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