Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#521

Post by laurentl » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 8:45 AM UTC

jakub_g wrote: post #34

Now it would be interesting to see the opinion of the court on fake IT contractors (SSII), where as a developer you are a full-time employee of company X, rented for years as full-time "consultant" to company Y, on premises of company Y, just with lower salary and no profit sharing & no bonuses that staff of company Y enjoys. (This has been a common practice of Microsoft in US in 1990s and they lost a lawsuit on that…

You don't have to speculate, there have been several cases where the Prudhommes re-qualified contractors as full-time employees. It usually takes 1) a well-organized union in company Y to help with the legal process, round up candidates, etc. and 2) an actual desire from the contractors to be hired by company Y. (Just mentioning 2 because some contractors I know, who've been posted to the same company for a long time, wouldn't dream of working there as an FTE).

I've been (remotely) involved in such a mass (about a dozen FTE) requalification 10 years ago. Needless to say, the rules for contract duration and conditions were strongly tightened up afterwards.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#522

Post by lexs » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 8:51 AM UTC

fidelramos wrote: post #409

waheoo wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of hang wringing in this thread to ignore this simple reality and defend their darling uber is kind of disgusting. Now id just wish law makers wake up and regulate paypal et al as banks.

Yes, because banking regulation works so well. coff 2008 coff coff .

You mean deregulation? Banks have famously seen less regulations starting in the 1980s

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#523

Post by kuzko_topia » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 8:57 AM UTC

slovenlyrobot wrote: post #238

mavelikara wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were the changes and it's negative results you observed?

They moved responsibility for determining whether a person is acting as an employee or a vendor in the vast majority of cases to the client, who must demonstrate a bunch of factors (I'm not a tax guy), not least - the "vendor's" right to substitute himself for a replacement they subcontract (via employment or otherwise) to, irrespective of the client's deemed suitability of the chosen replacement - the "vendor's" rig…

Well, from your feedback, the law seem to have had the required effect combining supression of disguised employment, assigning the right responsibility to parties involved and avoiding dilution of said responsibility.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#524

Post by weego » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:01 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #215

reaperducer wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees. This is not true. There are plenty of professions where employees bring some or all of their own equipment.

It is just one of the criteria. There are several.

And none of the other criteria fit, so it's a moot point

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#525

Post by alexmingoia » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:03 AM UTC

dusted wrote: post #505

baron816 wrote: post #504

Labor market regulation is tricky. All of Uber's drivers join as contractors under their own free will . No one is legally obligated to work for Uber. No one is threatening to do harm to anyone if they don't drive for Uber. If they don't like the terms of their employment, they can just stop driving for Uber. Now of course, that libertarian approach has some practical consequences. Humans are a little bit mushier tha…

"No one is legally obligated to work for Uber. No one is threatening to do harm to anyone if they don't drive for Uber. If they don't like the terms of their employment, they can just stop driving for Uber." This is an interesting position. On the surface it even seems reasonable. Just like "no one is FORCING you to eat that particular food, if you don't like it, just don't eat it". Well, hunger might force one to ea…

People who disagree with having the fruits of their labor stolen and given to others (welfare), or prevented from laboring (employment restrictions like the ones for Uber), are well aware that people have different possessions, capabilities, and opportunities. They just don’t think two wrongs make a right or that the ends justify the means. They think the purpose of government should be to secure rights instead of violating them to benefit someone else.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#526

Post by madeofpalk » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:08 AM UTC

mavelikara wrote: post #166

slovenlyrobot wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The UK HMRC has just absolutely devastated the London contracting market due to a rule shakeup like this. Speaking as an ex-contractor and current hiring manager, the result has been disastrous.

What were the changes and it's negative results you observed?

In other countries, IT/dev contractors are paid at a 50% premium to offset the short term and no benefits.

Most people who do this (like myself) like the way things are - basically FTE, but get paid a lot more in exchange for no sick leave.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#527

Post by throwaway744678 » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:14 AM UTC

alwayseasy wrote: post #276

throwaway744678 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of a driver, they get the ability to dynamically pick their rides in real time, and choose from the different apps the one that pays the most. There's a paradox in this: Uber and its competitors would ideally like their drivers to be 100% committed; yet they also need the drivers to be able to work for several apps as a defense against requalification as an employee.

No, they simply don't allow drivers to work for competitors with a simple trick: designated routes. Working within the same day on different apps is not enough, it has to be different apps => multiple clients => one trip. If an Uber driver were to pickup a Lyft user on a trip and to drop them off away from the main algorithmicly imposed road. Uber would warn the driver within a few days, regardless of client reviews.

I was not clear enough: indeed, they can't drive simultaneously different clients (from different apps). Instead, while they are waiting for a new client, they have several apps open, and if they get ride propositions from different apps, they pick the most lucrative one.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#528

Post by a_imho » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:16 AM UTC

rahimnathwani wrote: post #24

pkaye wrote: post #13

Seems a fair judgement since all the restriction make the drivers effectively work as employees: > Drivers who use the Uber application do not build up their own clientele, do not freely set their rates, and do not determine the terms and conditions of providing their transportation service. The company imposes the itinerary and the driver’s fare is adjusted if this itinerary is not followed. The destination is unkno…

Doesn't all of this also apply to taxis? Taxis pick up at taxi ranks or off the street. Taxis have regulations set by an organisation. Taxis (in most places) have rules that say they must take the most efficient route. In most places, taxis aren't allowed to refuse a customer based on destination. Does that mean that a taxi driver is an employee? Of course not.

I still don't understand how Uber is not a taxi service bar some nitpicking.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#529

Post by duxut_staglatz » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:31 AM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #419

duxut_staglatz wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My plumber is an actual independent worker, setting his own rates, having his own clientele and free to organize his work as he sees fit.

Uber doesn't stop people having their own clients. Quite the opposite, it's a great place to swap numbers with a driver you like. Uber even has a favourites button so you have a higher chance of getting the same driver/passenger. Also, your plumber doesn't set his rates, you do. He quotes and you accept (or not). That's exactly the same as the Uber driver. It seems pretty obvious to me that Uber drivers organise thei…

You are conflating Uber and the Uber driver.

The driver does not quote anything, Uber does and both the driver and the customer accept or not.

They have a very limited way to choose the ride they take: they have to make the decision in a couple of seconds, they may not know the destination and they are punished for declining too many rides by Uber. Does not scream free choice of what ride to take.

It is possible to bypass Uber and exchange numbers, yes. But the Uber platform itself does not let you build your own clientele, such as letting you look for the clients you want or the other way around. The question is not whether drivers can build their clientele outside of Uber but inside of Uber.

They do indeed have flexible hours, something that is apparently - reading the comments of this thread - impossible as an employee in the US and thus a feature of being an independent worker, but in France you can be an employee and have flexible hours, so that does not make Uber drivers independent.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#530

Post by wnkrshm » Thu, Mar 05, 2020, 9:38 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #496

6510 wrote: post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IF we can't send kids into coal mines the economy will collapse.

The point is this category of worker is not just made of a small fringe of poor victims. Many of these people are legitimate entrepreneurs who become millionaire small business owners. You're going to destroy an important path to wealth creation for the poor and middle class by forcing them to be mega corp drones. This is an awful idea. You will destroy their lives by pulling up the ladders blue collar workers are us…

It's not only about opportunity for gig economy workers, it's about us all paying the price of gig economy business operations. Uber's business model can be extended to virtually any job, if we lower the barrier to entry just like Uber is trying to do for the taxi business.

Their model is to be a gatekeeper to customers via their platform - if they are successful, none of those blue collar workers trying to climb out of underemployment will have a chance at running a small ride business, because only large platforms have access to customers.

If everyone suddenly becomes a freelancer, companies are free to push externalities onto society because there will be enough people willing to take the hit to their rights/benefits for any kind of employment. It's a race to the bottom that benefits only the company that has access to the customer base.

We have to choose whether we want that or not.