Waymo Via • Hacker News Board

Re: Waymo Via

#161

Post by ska » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:18 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #128

dumbfoundded wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trademarks matter in context a lot. An Apple branded computer is a lot stronger than an Apple branded apple. They choose a brand name bordering on descriptive. If it's descriptive, ie "Great Computer Co.", it's pretty weak. It'll be tough to own "Via" for anything in transportation.

That would be like owning the trademark "General Electric" and selling electrical equipment...

... which is why you never see any other companies with "electric" or "electronics" in their name.

Re: Waymo Via

#162

Post by ska » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:19 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #121

lolc wrote: post #110

> No matter what you’re transporting or where it’s headed, Waymo Via will have you covered. Lumber haulage, on forest tracks, in winter? Snark aside, I'll be really impressed when they manage to get any service going. But that page doesn't offer anything to convince me.

Lumber hauling off road may actually be one of the easier applications because the road is usually dedicated to trucking. Logging trucks already assume they can blast along at full speed because if you use a logging road, you’re supposed to radio your position via CB to ensure the trucks know where you are and don’t hit you.

IIRC there are already some analogous uses in mining - there the track following is a bit easier, but has similar dedicated use simplification.

Re: Waymo Via

#163

Post by optimiz3 » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:21 PM UTC

ckmiller wrote: post #41

I competed in the DARPA Urban Challenge, back in 2007. While we were watching the finalists trying to sort out the world's first fully-automated traffic jam, the conversation turned to how easy it is to manipulate these vehicles. Imagine a remote stretch of highway frequented by automated 18-wheelers. All that's required to bring the truck to a screeching halt is a bedsheet and some decent timing, at which point the…

> at which point the vehicle has no way to prevent a robbery

What a novel problem, truly unique to society. Goodness wonders how society protected stage coaches back in the 1800s.

Perhaps with deputized armed tax-payer funded civilians, tasked with investigation and law enforcement?

Re: Waymo Via

#164

Post by ckmiller » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:28 PM UTC

notatoad wrote: post #152

ckmiller wrote: post #41

I competed in the DARPA Urban Challenge, back in 2007. While we were watching the finalists trying to sort out the world's first fully-automated traffic jam, the conversation turned to how easy it is to manipulate these vehicles. Imagine a remote stretch of highway frequented by automated 18-wheelers. All that's required to bring the truck to a screeching halt is a bedsheet and some decent timing, at which point the…

Why does this sort of critique keep coming up in HN threads on autonomous vehicles? have autonomous cars really gotten so good that "what if violent criminals try to attack it" is the only criticism left? I'm pretty sure not hitting cyclists is still a much larger problem than accidentally wandering into the plot of an action movie. less interesting, i guess. theft is an insurance problem. If there's no human driver…

You're correct, autonomous vehicles are absolutely not to the point where highway robbery is a prime concern. But even if they were, the spoofing issue isn't just another tough problem to solve. It's a potential arms race.

Faking out machine learning systems is rapidly progressing from a few "fun proof-of-concept" examples to a serious area of study, and we've already seen it (gently) applied to autonomous vehicles [1] (ignore the overblown headline, it's just a piece of tape on a sign).

[1] https://www.technologyreview.com/s/615244/hackers-can-trick-...

Re: Waymo Via

#165

Post by ISL » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:32 PM UTC

ckmiller wrote: post #41

I competed in the DARPA Urban Challenge, back in 2007. While we were watching the finalists trying to sort out the world's first fully-automated traffic jam, the conversation turned to how easy it is to manipulate these vehicles. Imagine a remote stretch of highway frequented by automated 18-wheelers. All that's required to bring the truck to a screeching halt is a bedsheet and some decent timing, at which point the…

If the control of the truck were to fail over to a remote-control system, like those used by the military's UAV's, that particular situation could be mitigated at least as well as it could by a driver on-site (can't hold a remote driver at gunpoint).

Nobody holds up railroads today because of the legal/law-enforcement system. If Amazon/Roadway's trucks had a bunch of HD video and lidar images of suspects, Law-enforcement would be off to a great start.

Furthermore, the loss to theft need only be less than the cost of maintaining a huge fleet of human drivers. The really big challenge, IMHO, is finding a fulfilling new career for the people that these systems might displace.

Re: Waymo Via

#166

Post by abvdasker » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

ckmiller wrote: post #41

I competed in the DARPA Urban Challenge, back in 2007. While we were watching the finalists trying to sort out the world's first fully-automated traffic jam, the conversation turned to how easy it is to manipulate these vehicles. Imagine a remote stretch of highway frequented by automated 18-wheelers. All that's required to bring the truck to a screeching halt is a bedsheet and some decent timing, at which point the…

Occam's Razor here being to create some kind of automated firearm attached to the truck, the deadly superhuman speed and accuracy of which would act as a deterrent to freight thieves. This solution would have the extra benefit of adding some real suspense to the hijackings and robberies that do happen.

This is a serious comment and I can't think of any possible way in which this plan could backfire. There is nothing dystopian about automated trucks with AI-powered, high-precision guns filling America's highways 30 years in the future.

Re: Waymo Via

#167

Post by pedalpete » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:41 PM UTC

Pfhreak wrote: post #89

If Waymo is successful, there are potentially massive impacts to the population of the US. Trucking is a major industry. The Luddites weren't mad about the advancement of technology, they didn't destroy looms out of religious or anti-technological ideals. Many of them were skilled loom operators. They were squeezed out of their jobs by the race to the bottom, and they were angry that there wasn't any consideration fo…

I hadn't heard that description of the mentality of Luddites before. Thanks for bringing that up.

It may be different for trucking for a few reasons

1) apparently there is a huge shortage of truckers in the US currently

2) autonomous driving may be great for highway today, but seems to still be a bit away from truly autonomous for city environments. This could lead to a hub & spoke structure which keeps truckers employed, but has them taking over for more local routes.

3) As I understand it, a mechanical weave was always significantly faster than a person, and cheaper to boot. An autonomous truck doesn't get to drive faster (yet), and doesn't burn less fuel. It's efficiency comes only from replacing the person behind the wheel. If the person behind the wheel owns the truck (which is common) it may make their work easier.

4) how many people these days are wanting to become truckers? As truckers retire, and we seem to be requiring more and more shipping (an entirely different issue), could this be a managed transition over 20 years?

Re: Waymo Via

#168

Post by thedance » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:46 PM UTC

ttul wrote: post #121

lolc wrote: post #110

> No matter what you’re transporting or where it’s headed, Waymo Via will have you covered. Lumber haulage, on forest tracks, in winter? Snark aside, I'll be really impressed when they manage to get any service going. But that page doesn't offer anything to convince me.

Lumber hauling off road may actually be one of the easier applications because the road is usually dedicated to trucking. Logging trucks already assume they can blast along at full speed because if you use a logging road, you’re supposed to radio your position via CB to ensure the trucks know where you are and don’t hit you.

Sigh. Forest roads are absolutely not dedicated to logging, they are frequently used by hikers, backpackers, cyclists, and equestrians, and just people driving to a picnic spot. At least in America working forests are also public lands.

Re: Waymo Via

#169

Post by thedance » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

foota wrote: post #154

goldenchrome wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're real. I've seen them around the Bay Area.

I'm surprised that I hadn't seen leaks about this, if they were visible in public.

I've been wondering for years why nobody mentions this. I saw them on the road in Sunnyvale in 2018. Maybe people assume they are just regular trucks used to transport Waymo cars or something.

Re: Waymo Via

#170

Post by Qworg » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 11:54 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #156

Qworg wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Common is an understatement: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-... It is the #1 job in 29 states as of 2014.

Those numbers are very skewed though. Some categories have a lot more subcategories than others. Like, if you split it up into long haul, short haul, in-town, etc, truck driver would fall down the list rapidly.

I don't know if skewed over imprecise. There's all of the ancillary industries that support OTR trucking affected as well - that'll bring the total numbers back up.