Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees • Hacker News Board

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#211

Post by benibela » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

timwaagh wrote: post #140

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The classification of uber drivers as employees mostly means they have to pay more tax and less money goes to drivers and uber. People will argue employees have more rights and this is good for them, but the primary benefit of someone being an employee is to the state and the benefit is financial. If too many people become self-employed, the state can't finance itself anymore. The line between 'employee' and 'self-em…

Employees get a lot more benefits than self-employed. Health care insurance, sick days, vacations and pensions.

I do not know about France, but in Germany, employees only pay half of their healthcare insurance fees. And only their wage is subject to the healthcare insurance "tax", while self-employed people need to pay the tax on all incomes, including investment incomes

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#212

Post by caconym_ » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

The fact that you're suggesting a price and T&Cs on the work doesn't mean anybody has to accept them/can't negotiate (unlike "appified gig work", they can directly contact you to do so), and in your scenario the middleman is "thin", i.e. it just provides communication between labor buyers and sellers. In "appified gig work", the middleman is thick: by design it makes labor a fungible commodity, and sets prices and T&Cs that workers have no choice not to accept if they want any work at all—at most there are a handful of these middlemen in any local market, and the workers are not at all involved in setting their competitive strategies. They don't have any leverage at all unless they want to stop working altogether.

A reasonable court will see this business model as what it is: a way to dodge labor laws.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#213

Post by tyfon » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:49 PM UTC

fastball wrote: post #97

tyfon wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live the company has to set aside 12.5% of the salary paid for next years "vacation money". You can chose yourself when to withdraw this money in the following year. For a full time job you are required to take 25 days (or 5 weeks) off work outside of public holidays which is about 10% of the total working time so you usually have a bit more to spend in this period even if the vacation itself is unpaid :)

Why not just pay them more? Seems like a convoluted way to structure a pay increase.

Because then you would have a bunch of people without money in the vacation month ;)

I'd be able to manage it personally but you will find that a lot of people wouldn't..

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#214

Post by foogazi » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

datashow wrote: post #72

So if a driver works on both Uber and Lyft or whatever, the driver is an employee of all those companies?

Wonder if they’ll have to sign a non-compete

Or clock-in 9-5 for a salary?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#215

Post by WalterBright » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #129

WalterBright wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees. This is not true. There are plenty of professions where employees bring some or all of their own equipment.

It is just one of the criteria. There are several.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#216

Post by def8cefe » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:51 PM UTC

bluntfang wrote: post #204

def8cefe wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty common everywhere. Imagine waiting (potentially hours) queued in a taxi stand for a fare, only to get somebody with a $5 trip who's rude and smells like they haven't showered in a decade. None of the people who make the taxi regulations (or the passengers who invent their own in the back seat) would accept that person if it was their own car, but taxi drivers are seen as contemptible and unworthy of basic…

>Imagine waiting (potentially hours) queued in a taxi stand for a fare, only to get somebody with a $5 trip who's rude and smells like they haven't showered in a decade. I agree, we should pay taxi drivers a living wage so that this can't happen.

>we should pay taxi drivers a living wage so that this can't happen.

The drivers this affects most are the ones who are self-employed. You could increase fare prices but riders would just go to ride-sharing platforms where the drivers have less overhead due to less regulation.

What municipalities (or whatever jurisdiction is responsible) need to do is relax taxi regulations so taxi drivers can be more competitive with ride-sharing apps (or the opposite and hold Uber/Lyft to the same standards).

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#217

Post by dwnvoted2hell » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

According to US law, generally an employee is someone you give very fined tune directions to, where a contractor is someone that does the general things you ask according to their preexisting knowledge and know-how.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#218

Post by nulbyte » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

canidiarus wrote: post #203

zuminator wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me the main reason why this is not analogous to Uber is that with Uber, the bidder does not set the rate, Uber does.

Can't drivers can deny the fare without penalty if the work offer doesn't pay what they want?

Declining can adversely affect the driver's rating. How it does so, and the imolications of that rating, are unilaterally decided by Uber. There is no negotiation; as a driver, you either agree or you don't drive for Uber.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#219

Post by michaelmrose » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:52 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #188

alistairSH wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your shed example, a builder could contact you and negotiate the price (perhaps the $100 price you set is completely unrealistic). That's not possible with Uber - there is no price negotiation - only declining/accepting a ride. Similar argument for changing toppings on a cake - a caterer can negotiate changes to the cake - an Uber driver has no such flexibility. Regardless, given corporate (human?) nature is to le…

I think the strongest argument against this point of view is that the drivers can opt to work for multiple car services to get a handle on their price structures. It's certainly possible for a traditional employer to allow that arrangement, but you have to admit it is an uncommon thing. It's much more analogous to a contractor working for a general contractor -- if I'm a plumber I can take gigs from multiple general…

If target allowed you also work for Walmart that wouldn't transform their employees into contractors.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#220

Post by sixstringtheory » Wed, Mar 04, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

punk-coder wrote: post #130

WalterBright wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since Uber drivers are using their own equipment (cars), that also means they are not employees.

Is this different than if I worked as an employee at a pizza restaurant as a delivery driver and I use my own personal car for making the deliveries?

I have in fact delivered pizzas as a W2 employee, and had to use my own car. While I didn't ask if they'd provide a car for me, because I've never heard of such an arrangement, I highly doubt the answer would've been yes.