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For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

nytimes.com

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Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#131

Post by robotnikman »

fiblye wrote: post #56
totorovirus wrote: post #28

One of the most interesting culture in South korea is that under treated low class people (dirt-spoon class) don't really try disrupt current society model. To elaborate, people put poverty on their own responsibility rather than complaining about structural inequality. The rage towards class inequality is emitted at competition for higher ranked university and the reward of being in a prestigious college.

That dream get crushed when universities start increasingly accepting students through connections and children of graduates. Getting major urban schools is much harder as a rural kid with a 4.0 GPA than a kid from nearby with the same GPA and parents who attended and donated to the school a few times. I think Americans are more pissed off because there's been more to make people aware of the long term and growing un…

People do seem to forget how much a privileged upbringing can be a factor in terms of what university someone goes to and their job prospects once they have graduated. I've met software engineers who graduated from prestigious universities who were no more smarter than someone who learned programming and graduated from their local community college.

Its more of who you know than what you know unfortunately.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#132

Post by claudeganon »

ALittleLight wrote: post #130
claudeganon wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other poor people aren't as mean. The original staff at the house are diligent workers. The original driver offers to go above and beyond to drive the sister home. The hidden family are dedicated servants. The first tutor tries to help his friend. The original housekeeper is literally lying to her employers, keeping her husband in their house in a secret compartment, where he steals food at night and terrifies thei…

The original housekeeper is lying, yes, but is a diligent servant who, on net, is explicitly said to be worth her cost of extra food. Her husband was once accidentally spotted by the rich son, he's not intentionally terrifying the children. They only become as cutthroat as the family, not because they lost money, but because the family kills the wife and the main son tries to kill the husband. I would say the moral a…

The fact that your term for the first housekeeper is “diligent servant” should tell you how far your own biases are straining against the intention of the film. The good poor vs. the evil poor is not what it’s about.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#133

Post by justicezyx »

zpallin wrote: post #125
ALittleLight wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it universal care if some people can't get care because they can't afford it? By that logic the US has universal care - any legal treatment your doctor wants to give you and you can afford it, anyone can get.

Universal Healthcare does not guarantee affordability, only access. You must be thinking of "Free Universal Healthcare". And no, the US does not have it. You can be denied insurance and you won't be able to see most doctors because of it. Some ERs won't even treat you without insurance, especially if it's an expensive procedure.

> Universal Healthcare does not guarantee affordability

I think we have a word for that: affordable health care. Universal Healthcare necessarily covers affordability:

"""Universal health care is a system that provides quality medical services to all citizens. The federal government offers it to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. """ -- From https://www.thebalance.com/universal-health-care-4156211

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#134

Post by zpallin »

justicezyx wrote: post #133
zpallin wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal Healthcare does not guarantee affordability, only access. You must be thinking of "Free Universal Healthcare". And no, the US does not have it. You can be denied insurance and you won't be able to see most doctors because of it. Some ERs won't even treat you without insurance, especially if it's an expensive procedure.

> Universal Healthcare does not guarantee affordability I think we have a word for that: affordable health care. Universal Healthcare necessarily covers affordability: """Universal health care is a system that provides quality medical services to all citizens. The federal government offers it to everyone regardless of their ability to pay. """ -- From https://www.thebalance.com/universal-health-care-4156211

Except your quote is exactly what I am saying. And just because universal healthcare is "provided to everyone regardless of their ability to pay", it doesn't mean that they'll always be able to pay it.

Because even if costs are "affordable" over all, it doesn't guarantee that everyone, including the Kim family in 'Parasite' would be able to afford more expensive treatments without selling their home for 30k.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#135

Post by ALittleLight »

claudeganon wrote: post #132
ALittleLight wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The original housekeeper is lying, yes, but is a diligent servant who, on net, is explicitly said to be worth her cost of extra food. Her husband was once accidentally spotted by the rich son, he's not intentionally terrifying the children. They only become as cutthroat as the family, not because they lost money, but because the family kills the wife and the main son tries to kill the husband. I would say the moral a…

The fact that your term for the first housekeeper is “diligent servant” should tell you how far your own biases are straining against the intention of the film. The good poor vs. the evil poor is not what it’s about.

She is literally a diligent servant. Her job is to be a servant and she is attentive, hard working, cares about her job and the family and the house. I don't see how accurately describing her as a diligent servant shows any of my biases.

I don't think the film is the good poor versus the evil poor. I think the film is something like a rich person's horror story - the poor hold you in contempt, they're lying to you, they're parasitic off of you, and they're a danger to you and your children. Even worse, they're in your home!

Your interpretation of the film seems explicitly rejected be the film itself as I explained above.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#136

Post by rchaud »

solveit wrote: post #30
totorovirus wrote: post #28

One of the most interesting culture in South korea is that under treated low class people (dirt-spoon class) don't really try disrupt current society model. To elaborate, people put poverty on their own responsibility rather than complaining about structural inequality. The rage towards class inequality is emitted at competition for higher ranked university and the reward of being in a prestigious college.

It helps that socialism is a much dirtier word in Korea, courtesy of history with a certain northern neighbour.

Is it? "Socialism" and "Communism" are used interchangeably in American politcal discourse as a blunt way to distinguish between democracy and capitalism versus dictatorship and collectivism.

South Korea itself was a dictatorship until the late 1980s and received preferential treatment in trade talks in the cold war era with Western economies due to their unique role as a buffer against Communist expansion.

This level of privileged access would not be available to less strategically important countries in a 'free market'. Plus SK already provides a level of socialist services that a failed state like North Korea can only dream of.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#137

Post by claudeganon »

ALittleLight wrote: post #135
claudeganon wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that your term for the first housekeeper is “diligent servant” should tell you how far your own biases are straining against the intention of the film. The good poor vs. the evil poor is not what it’s about.

She is literally a diligent servant. Her job is to be a servant and she is attentive, hard working, cares about her job and the family and the house. I don't see how accurately describing her as a diligent servant shows any of my biases. I don't think the film is the good poor versus the evil poor. I think the film is something like a rich person's horror story - the poor hold you in contempt, they're lying to you, t…

What do you think the rich family would have done to her if they knew what she was actually doing?

What exposes your biases is that you reduce her to the superficial appearance that she puts on for the rich in order to survive. This is not only viewing her through the perspective of the wealthy in the film, but counter to what the movie itself tells you she is forced to do and become, outside this limited perspective. It’s embracing an ignorance of the entirety of her characterization that the film intentionally elaborates.

And this is what Bong Joo Ho himself said about his movie:

“I tried to express a sentiment specific to Korean culture, [but] all the responses from different audiences were pretty much the same. Essentially, we all live in the same country, called Capitalism.”

The film is a depiction of life under Capitalism and all the related tensions, violence, and inequality that comes along with it. At a certain point, refusing to acknowledge this is just being willfully obtuse.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#138

Post by watwut »

barry-cotter wrote: post #97
watwut wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You basically count the one victorious group and ignore all the others. Russian civil war involved 5 armies. It involved mobs attacking local leaders who fled - they were not necessary related to eventual winners. French revolution was massively complex event too. Probably even more complex then Russian one. And in each of these events there were more then one side commuting violence - and there were many people havi…

I’m not ignoring the other groups, they’re irrelevant to my point, that the bottom doesn’t matter politically. All five groups were well educated, rich and cosmopolitan compared to the average Russian during the civil war. That the French and Russian revolutions were complex doesn’t mean that the competitors for political power were ever in any way representative of the population. They weren’t. They were members of…

Average Russian could not write and read. So of course average Russian could not organize anything as leader, writing and reading are necessary. So if you define elite in a way that includes everyone able to read, then it is starting to loose meaning. Plus rich cosmopolitan is not actually correct description.

And regardless of these, average Russians had own gripes and opinions on what is fair and what they want. The periodic explosions of violence, the demonstrations and very real possibility of massacre (and refusal to perform it) and revolutionary attempts all played role in eventual loss of controll of the country, but more importantly do not show average Russian as never complaining opinionless person.

But also, popular sentiment did played massive role in French revolution, the way it started and evolved. You can't write if off from history.

Regardless of who wins power in the end, it is just not true that lower class people don't have opinions and complains. You choosing to ignore them is your choice.

Just like popular sentiment in Syria played massive role in the way war started and evolved - despite endgame being eventually won by Russian support. You can't write those people's actions out of history.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#139

Post by watwut »

nickik wrote: post #110
barry-cotter wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The willingness of "bottom of the class hierarchy" to join counts for quite a lot. If this were true neither the Russian nor the French Revolution would have been a “success”. Both were won by committed minorities in the capital city and they were even less popular outside it. A small organized minority of people willing to use violence to achieve their goals who are good at it can overcome weak opposition from a m…

I have tried to make this point often but people absolutely hate it and don't want to listen. Yes, there is a lot of local action, lots of mobs and mobs going after whatever. But the political outcome is often not determined by those action. I would however ague that those who can get the mob to act for them can get an advantage. Controlling the population and the mob matters quite a bit, just not as much as people w…

There is massive difference between "powerful people shape ends more" and "the people at the bottom of the class hierarchy have enough problems that complaining about inequality or engaging in politics".

The former is about low chance of massive success and low likelyhood of gaining chance. The latter is attempting to frame everyone who complains about inequality as unauthentic and attempt to pretend that lower class people don't complain.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#140

Post by jdc »

cwilkes wrote: post #123
moksly wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sincerely hope the European response to medicine prices that are so high that they cripple national economies will to set max prices or to completely nationalise production. Hopefully we’ll find a way to throw some jail time after the people responsible.

What about jailing doctors or nurses that refuse to work for whatever salary you deem is appropriate?

Then you'd face shortages and possibly malicious compliance.
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