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For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

nytimes.com

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Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#121

Post by robjan »

dmix wrote: post #18
danans wrote: post #3

As much as it pointed out the serious inequality issues facing South Korea, the movie also highlighted the fact that the poor in South Korea have access to healthcare free at the point of service. It also depicted young people who, despite their poverty, had enough access to schooling that they could serve as English tutors to the wealthy (yes, I'm aware that SK's education system has other issues related to it being…

Also looking at South Korea and SEA GDP growth (especially compared to most 'developing' countries) they are doing amazing compared or a lot of South American countries who adopted Boliviar style socialism around the same time: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Fo... https://static.seekingalpha.com/uploads/2011/7/11/saupload_t... They did this by opening up and adopting a more modern market or…

South Korea is a developed country so why would you compare it to developing countries?

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#122

Post by robjan »

9q9 wrote: post #118
netsharc wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates had rich parents, who bought a computer for his private school (ok maybe that's an urban legend, but Wikipedia says: When he was in the eighth grade, the Mothers' Club at the school used proceeds from Lakeside School's rummage sale to buy a Teletype Model 33 ASR terminal and a block of computer time on a General Electric (GE) computer for the students.). Zuck went to a private school. Not really basement d…

Bill Gates had rich parents So? Lot's of people have rich parents (think, for example about the members of the House of Saud). How many of those raise to Bill Gates' level of excellence? He co-wrote a paper [1] as an undergraduate in a top mathematics journal. The algorithm he co-authored remained the best algorithm for its domain for 30 years. As I used to notice this reaction in myself, and I've been trying to avoi…

GP was pointing out that Gates wasn't entirely "self-made", as suggested by GGP. Gates in fact enjoyed opportunities that aren't available to the average American and is therefore not a particularly good example of social mobility. Pointing out that he enjoyed a degree of privilege doesn't diminish his achievements.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#123

Post by cwilkes »

moksly wrote: post #119
alexgmcm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my SO is a nurse in paediatric oncology and has seen people from poorer countries sell everything they have in order to bring their child to Western hospitals in the futile hope of treatment. It's really sad and seems almost exploitative. They often get ripped off by private clinics in their home countries as well. At some point we need to say these people aren't in a fit state of mind to make these financial d…

I sincerely hope the European response to medicine prices that are so high that they cripple national economies will to set max prices or to completely nationalise production. Hopefully we’ll find a way to throw some jail time after the people responsible.

What about jailing doctors or nurses that refuse to work for whatever salary you deem is appropriate?

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#124

Post by zpallin »

anonsivalley652 wrote: post #60
zpallin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal healthcare does not mean "free healthcare". What it means is that all people have equal access to healthcare, the kind that would otherwise be provided by everyone having private healthcare insurance, such as what would need to happen in the US. The intent is that this would be more affordable for the average person than not having a universal healthcare system. Of course, affordability is not a guarantee f…

I'm sorry but that's wrong because that's trying to twist the meaning of words. No money, no healthcare isn't universal obviously. With no single-payer, government-funded, healthcare system, only doctors and patients who have to pay for everything themselves, that is in no way "universal healthcare." The problem with charging poor people for healthcare is that they get sicker and sicker and then need emergency care,…

While I agree with you that universal healthcare should be "free", in most cases it's just "universal" healthcare and there is a marked difference between the two. Universal Healthcare only centralizes the insurance industry into a government managed program and determines cost by public committee rather than behind closed doors in boardrooms. That has been determined to reduce costs but not eliminate them. And the purpose is "access."

"Free Universal Healthcare" on the other hand focuses on delivering all healthcare at no cost for all common illnesses. To be clear, South Korea has Universal Healthcare and Bernie Sanders is proposing Free Universal Healthcare. But even Sanders' program would not guarantee that prescription drugs are free, they'll still be at maximum $200 per year per perscription. So, while I agree with you that it's "unethical and classist" to pick and choose who gets to live based on whether or not they can afford it, Universal Healthcare is not an end-all to this and is just part of the whole solution.

Also, to stay on topic, South Korea has the most consistently highest rated access to healthcare, but the issues presented in the movie Parasite still ring true for many Koreans.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#125

Post by zpallin »

ALittleLight wrote: post #29
zpallin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universal healthcare does not mean "free healthcare". What it means is that all people have equal access to healthcare, the kind that would otherwise be provided by everyone having private healthcare insurance, such as what would need to happen in the US. The intent is that this would be more affordable for the average person than not having a universal healthcare system. Of course, affordability is not a guarantee f…

How is it universal care if some people can't get care because they can't afford it? By that logic the US has universal care - any legal treatment your doctor wants to give you and you can afford it, anyone can get.

Universal Healthcare does not guarantee affordability, only access. You must be thinking of "Free Universal Healthcare".

And no, the US does not have it. You can be denied insurance and you won't be able to see most doctors because of it. Some ERs won't even treat you without insurance, especially if it's an expensive procedure.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#126

Post by 9q9 »

robjan wrote: post #122
9q9 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates had rich parents So? Lot's of people have rich parents (think, for example about the members of the House of Saud). How many of those raise to Bill Gates' level of excellence? He co-wrote a paper [1] as an undergraduate in a top mathematics journal. The algorithm he co-authored remained the best algorithm for its domain for 30 years. As I used to notice this reaction in myself, and I've been trying to avoi…

GP was pointing out that Gates wasn't entirely "self-made", as suggested by GGP. Gates in fact enjoyed opportunities that aren't available to the average American and is therefore not a particularly good example of social mobility. Pointing out that he enjoyed a degree of privilege doesn't diminish his achievements.

Gates probably at least 1000x-ed his parents wealth. By just about any measure that's being self-made, as the GGP correctly pointed out. If 1000x-ing doesn't count as self-made exactly what meaningful measure of self-madeness and social mobility do you propose?

   degree of privilege doesn't diminish
Privilege is a vague term that has become a term of political abuse and has ceased to be analytically useful, I recommend to avoid it. For example, does anyone who uses it bother to quantify privilege, after all we all stand on the shoulders of giants? How is the modern use of the term privilege useful, given the vastly different outcomes of the children of the rich? As I said, not every child of upper middle class families become Gates/Zuck ... My inner Nietzsche smells ressentiment here.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#127

Post by infruset »

remote_phone wrote: post #9

I didn’t get the sense it was class strife. The main family was a bunch of scumbags. They lied and cheated constantly. I didn’t get the sense that they represented the lower class because the others around them weren’t like that. It makes it harder to argue this represents class struggle when the main family is so deceitful and undeserving of benefits.

Cultural question from a non-native speaker: is it customary to tell stories in the past tense when mentioning a movie or book?

(I ask because in my language and culture it sounds a bit childish, and because I've also seen stories recounted in the present tense)

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#128

Post by wbronitsky »

lurquer wrote: post #54

Parasite gives one the same degree of insight about Korean culture as Raising Arizona does about American culture. WTF, HackerNews? All this pretentious pontificating about the deeper meaning of a dark comedy (which could be set in ANY culture or locale with very few changes...) Whats next? A thread about the subtleties of Korean culture revealed in Gangham Style? Read a book.

> Parasite gives one the same degree of insight about Korean culture as Raising Arizona does about American culture.

http://sensesofcinema.com/2017/cteq/raising-arizona/ and https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/09/30... discuss this well. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.5325/studamerhumor.3.1.0001?... looks to be interesting, but is paywalled. Either way, Raising Arizona seems to me to be some great cultural commentary.

> A thread about the subtleties of Korean culture revealed in Gangham Style? Read a book.

That too sounds like an interesting idea: https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Reflections-Gangnam-Style...

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#129

Post by netsharc »

golergka wrote: post #99
2drew3 wrote: post #13

For those who watched the movie, I found the ending interesting. I won't spoil it for everyone else, but Bong Joon-ho made his perspective unambiguous: he's not a believer in social mobility in Korea. 6 of the top 10 Forbes list in Korea are self-made; the other 4 inherited their wealth. In contrast, 10 out of top 10 are self-made in the US. There are better metrics to compare social mobility (this one was convenient…

> he's not a believer in social mobility in Korea > it's impossible for basement dwellers to make it to nice mansions Did we watch the same movie? The contrast between two families depicted on screen, their woth ethic and simple human morals is so stark that it seems even more right-wing than I am. I don't believe that there's a social justice to be achieved in society as a whole, but as you watch the movie (especial…

The director has mentioned that the rich family were also parasites, although you're right, maybe he didn't make their parasitic behavior explicit enough. Although some examples I noticed:

- They got rid of their loyal, long-serving, housekeeper instead of caring that she's sick/supporting her through it.

- They "forced" their helpers to show up on Sunday.

- When the driver (the poor dad) was reluctant to run around as a Native American, the rich dad showed anger and said "You're getting paid extra for this!".

On the topic of work ethic, I didn't really see the rich dad or the mom working hard, the mom doesn't even work! Just like many of us in this forum, the dad probably got lucky to end up in a high-paying position, luck doesn't mean work ethic!

You're probably a believer in the meritocracy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTDGdKaMDhQ , and watched the movie with a little confirmation bias.

Re: For Seoul’s poor, class strife in ‘Parasite’ is daily reality

#130

Post by ALittleLight »

claudeganon wrote: post #109
ALittleLight wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In one scene, the poor mother says something like "If I was this rich, I'd be nice too" and then immediately scolds or hits a begging dog. In this scene, the poor woman is relatively rich - she has the house they've taken over for the weekend, plenty of food, and the dog is poor and begging. I interpreted this, as the two events happen one right after the other, as the movie clearly rejecting the woman's claim. Even…

> Other poor people aren't as mean. The original staff at the house are diligent workers. The original driver offers to go above and beyond to drive the sister home. The hidden family are dedicated servants. The first tutor tries to help his friend. The original housekeeper is literally lying to her employers, keeping her husband in their house in a secret compartment, where he steals food at night and terrifies thei…

The original housekeeper is lying, yes, but is a diligent servant who, on net, is explicitly said to be worth her cost of extra food. Her husband was once accidentally spotted by the rich son, he's not intentionally terrifying the children. They only become as cutthroat as the family, not because they lost money, but because the family kills the wife and the main son tries to kill the husband.

I would say the moral arc of the hidden family is a rejection of the "morality follows wealth" idea. When they are in debt and danger their solution is to hide and work hard. The wife sacrifices a lot to keep her husband fed and they seem to love each other. What they're doing isn't perfect, but seems like one of their best options. The hidden family only becomes violent after they are held captive and the wife is killed and the husband nearly killed.

I'm not sure how poor the original tutor is. I don't think that's clear at all. He wants to marry rich daughter, but that doesn't mean he's rich. The main son wants to marry rich daughter too.

The he mother does have a lot when she's cruel to the dog. She has more food than she can eat and won't spare it. When she and her family have fully infiltrated the rich household, they don't help the hidden husband.

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