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Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

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Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#131
post #45

I swung by the Atrium booth at the Startup Grind conference a few weeks ago. A former lawyer, I was curious to hear their pitch. It was basically: we get you cheap lawyers, and we help them find new clients. I asked if all of their lawyers are based in the US, and they couldn't give me a straight answer. Eventually, when I said "well, of course they must all be US-licensed lawyers, right?" they said "oh, yeah, they m…

So it was basically Craigslist for lawyers?

Put another way, it was doomed (good riddance).

I've mentored aspiring entrepreneurs in the legal tech + services space for a number of years now and go out of my way to provide additional guidance (and some well intentioned ribbing) to those who pitch any sort of legal referral idea.

The concepts are (without fail) derivative and lack novelty, equivalent to pitching "Uber rideshare, but for [INDUSTRY]" without more to sophisticated VCs.

The problem is very real, but the margins are so thin that venture shouldn't be anywhere near it. Solutions should be non-profit and left to those heroes in the A2J space (whose funding should be significantly increased).

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this doesn't seem like a strong argument because this is just basic market competition. Even though a law firm being more efficient would lose hourly billing they would quickly grow more clients by providing a cheaper service. The lawfirm itself has no particular incentive to operate inefficiently. I think the much more plausible explanation is that a lot of these alleged 'productivity tools' don't add that much prod…

> this doesn't seem like a strong argument because this is just basic market competition. Even though a law firm being more efficient would lose hourly billing they would quickly grow more clients by providing a cheaper service. The lawfirm itself has no particular incentive to operate inefficiently. As a factual matter, you are quite wrong. Law firms rarely get reprimanded for over-billing, and in fact, the opposite…

Can they not be more efficient and still bill the same hours? What is stopping them from improving their internal efficiency but still pocketing the same amount of money?

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this doesn't seem like a strong argument because this is just basic market competition. Even though a law firm being more efficient would lose hourly billing they would quickly grow more clients by providing a cheaper service. The lawfirm itself has no particular incentive to operate inefficiently. As a factual matter, you are quite wrong. Law firms rarely get reprimanded for over-billing, and in fact, the opposite…

Can they not be more efficient and still bill the same hours? What is stopping them from improving their internal efficiency but still pocketing the same amount of money?

> Can they not be more efficient and still bill the same hours? What is stopping them from improving their internal efficiency but still pocketing the same amount of money?

As a lawyer, if you read and understand a document in 10 minutes and bill an hour of time for it, that's lying and you can lose your bar license over it. However, if you read that same document very slowly and carefully over a full hour, then you are considered a high quality detail-oriented attorney.

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#134

> Atrium had attempted a pivot back in January, laying off its in-house lawyers to become a more pure software startup with better margins. Some of its lawyers formed a separate standalone legal firm and took on former Atrium clients. But Kan tells me that it was tough to regain momentum coming out of that change, which some Atrium customers tell me felt chaotic and left them unsure of their legal representation. It'…

When I worked there a few years back, the spin was that it'd be letting the lawyers themselves get more done, by automating or easing rote but necessary tasks like reviewing company documents &etc. I think the story around what paralegals would do was more nebulous, though.

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this doesn't seem like a strong argument because this is just basic market competition. Even though a law firm being more efficient would lose hourly billing they would quickly grow more clients by providing a cheaper service. The lawfirm itself has no particular incentive to operate inefficiently. As a factual matter, you are quite wrong. Law firms rarely get reprimanded for over-billing, and in fact, the opposite…

Can they not be more efficient and still bill the same hours? What is stopping them from improving their internal efficiency but still pocketing the same amount of money?

> Can they not be more efficient and still bill the same hours? What is stopping them from improving their internal efficiency but still pocketing the same amount of money?

Generally, if you want to sell technology to lawyers, telling them they will be more efficient will not work, they are simply not motivated to spend money for something makes something they are already doing take less time.

If you want to sell to lawyers, the best arguments you have are:

- Increase Quality / Reduce Errors: There are tons of mistakes that lawyers can make, and they are constantly terrified of making them. As a lawyer reputation is everything, and even silly inconsequential mistakes hurt.

- Get More Clients: Small-time lawyers spend up to 50% of their time trying to attract clients. At larger firms, it's less than that, but it's still a constant pressure that they are judged on. They may not be willing to pay for something that makes their work 10% faster, but they will pay for something that gets them 10% more clients.

- Capabilities That Change the Law Itself: Some technology really changes the rules itself. E-discovery allowed firms to look through millions of pages of documents, and to bury their opponents in the same. If you didn't have it, you were at a disadvantage and would lose your case.

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#136

> Atrium had attempted a pivot back in January, laying off its in-house lawyers to become a more pure software startup with better margins. Some of its lawyers formed a separate standalone legal firm and took on former Atrium clients. But Kan tells me that it was tough to regain momentum coming out of that change, which some Atrium customers tell me felt chaotic and left them unsure of their legal representation. It'…

Agreed - it does seem like a cynical move. Now waiting on Justin to share the story from his side.

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#137
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal is a notoriously sluggish industry, one that's almost infuriatingly incapable of adopting change and technology. Atrium's original pitch was exactly the opposite of what most legal teams are used to interacting with, and I can't think of a single biglaw attorney (sorry for the anecdote) who had faith in the idea or its execution. The original concept, as a reminder: https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/10/atrium-lega…

I believed that law was a sluggish, tech-averse industry when I signed up to join it. But I don't see it living up to its tech-resistant reputation. It's very easy to blame the customer that way, when you have something to sell. As a lawyer, a coder, and legal toolmaker, I've been there. But my lived and observed experience of practice is that lawyers adopt what makes them competitive. As a result, they've often been…

Nice writeup. Too many startups and founders out there w/ no idea about the industry. Thus, excuses of the type you mention ("sluggish, tech-averse, etc") predominate over critical evaluation of the extremely sticky and complicated obstacles to new innovations in the legal tech space.

That said, as a fellow lawyer, coder, and legal toolmaker, I'd posit there's more of a middle ground than you laid out:

> It's easy to sell a lawyer some technology that their counterparts are using to run circles around them.

Of course – it should be easy to sell lawyers on established technologies! In fact, one could argue competence REQUIRES lawyers/firms to adopt said technologies. It's not wrong to be disappointed with what's being defined as tech adoption in this thread by industry defenders:

> security standards, word processing, LANs, spreadsheets, aggregating data & metrics, owning an iPad, ...

These are bare minimums and best practices in every other industry, and celebrating attorneys for meeting an extremely low bar is no better than technobabble.

> It's hard to sell a lawyer some technology with a change-the-world, techno-solutionist pep talk.

Stipulating there's a difference between snake oil and actually meaningful legal-specific technologies for practicing attorneys/firms, then yes, certain players in the industry will be more conservative about adopting new innovation. Conversely, a functioning market would also imply the opposite: those who responsibly bet on the next big thing, whether in an operational capacity, to drive costs down, or with the consent of their clients.

Sad to say, that's not the current state of the legal industry. Sure, I'm likely biased since I'm still on the vendor side irrespective of how much we aim to make well-built software with solid UIX focused on the practitioner. Nonetheless, firms remain extremely risk averse, hierarchical, obsessed with profits per partner above all else, and long live the billable hour.

Once again, it's complicated, and no one really has the nuance or all the answers, so we all fall back to a bit of a stereotype which makes that middle ground elusive. Ultimately, however, it's really the industry that suffers, and I wonder if/when it will ever change, what the impetus will be, and if it truly requires another global economic meltdown to shake things up.

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#138
The article states:

>"It will return some of its $75.5 million in funding to investors, including Series B lead Andreessen Horowitz."

Does this simply mean it will return all funding after paying out remaining invoices and salary obligations? Or is there some significance to the phrase "some of" here?

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most expensive lawyer is one the one that loses. Going cheap on legal representation is not great business advice.

I'm not sure what your first sentence means, but you're absolutely right that some GCs go with expensive outside counsel precisely because they're expensive. If it's a legal matter that's critical for the company, the GC can get blamed for going with a cut-rate firm, but not for going with a firm that's 'too expensive'.

It's a lawyer joke. They saying goes that if you win your case, it's worth every penny.

Re: Atrium shuts down, laying off 100

#140
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and I actually considered possibilities like this. But it would be pretty difficult/expensive/time-consuming for people to come to the US, go to law school, study for and pass the bar, and then go back to a low-cost-of-living place to practice law. In most states, you have to go to an accredited law school in order to even sit for the bar, and all of such law schools are located in the US (and charge commensura…

Guessing they’d be mainly those that attended the lowest tier of accredited law school on an H-1 and then couldn’t find gainful employment here. OTOH, after sept 11 my cousin (or, I think, his wife) decided they didn’t want to raise kids in NY so he moved back to Mumbai, but kept his job with a major ibank and salary, just working mostly remotely. I suspect though he’s an exception.

H-1 isn't a student visa.
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